.44 Henry effectiveness out of a pistol

[Jake C]

Howdy all,

first, if this is in the wrong place, then I apologize. I've always been curious as to how effective the .44 Henry Rimfire round was out of a pistol such as the Open Top Colts, and I've had no luck finding information regarding this. I recall reading somewhere that, when fired from a rifle, they were comparable to a .45 ACP round.

This is mainly idle curiosity on my part, and thanks in advance for any info.

Merry Christmas all,
Jake

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I don't have one, long arm or pistol, but the .44 Henry  was chambered in the .44 Colt 1872 Open Top.

Looking at Cartridges of the World 3d edition, discloses some comparisons;

The .44 Henry achieved appx.1125 fps in a long gun.

The .44 short, only .155" shorter claimed appx. 500 fps in a pistol

Both were loaded with a appx. 200 grain bullet.

The Henry re-appeared twice; once as the .44Henry CF late in the Century and sold only in South America, and as the .44 American of 1870. The last was loaded with 25 gr of FFG for a revolver mv of 660 fps with a 218 gr bullet.

My guess would have a .44 Henry revolver with a 200 grain bullet at about 650 -700fps, more or less.

[Jake C]

Thanks for indulging me there. That doesn't sound too bad/weak. But heck, I wouldn't want to get shot with anything, regardless of what it was!

Thank you kindly Sir Charles.

[Delmonico]

That agrees with Barnes COW. 

[St. George]

Factor in distance-to-target being short-range, too - though the round and the weapon could hit at a longer distance, most men couldn't, so the 'killing range' was quite often the distance of a card table or width of a street.

More often than that, it was the handful of inches from the muzzle of the piece to the back of the intended's head - only Dime Novels and the much later Silver Screen giving any 'honor' to killings, and despite what Louis L'Amour wrote, they weren't all dead shots, either - that's why there were long guns...

Then, the bullet was soft lead - that soft lead projectile striking bone flattened, and flattened suddenly - causing a great shock.

Not the hydrostatic shock of a hollow-point .44 Magnum from decades in the future - driving fluids out and away from the wound channel dramatically - but more like being hit by a well-placed baseball bat (a 'real' wooden one - not that cute aluminum bat-shaped thing).

Effective for the times?

You bet!

Scouts Out!

[Trailrider]

As with any non-magnum pistol round, impact point on the human body would significantly determine lethality or stopping power.  It has been adequately demonstrated that a lethal hit might not immediately stop the individual target. The M1860 Colt's Army with an 8-inch barrel has been compared to a .38 Spl. in stopping power. As the typical load was with a 146 gr. .45 cal. lead ball, a 200 gr. conical ball bullet would probably have a slight advantage.  The main advantage to the .44 Henry Flat in a pistol would be speed in reloading, which would have no bearing on the effectiveness ballistically! (The flat point might be slightly more effective than a conical ball.) OTOH, the psychological effect of being shot by anything...even in the shoulder (which, considering the lungs project fairly high in the shoulder area, and the subclavian artery is in that vicinity, is not the insignificant wound the movies and fiction portray), in the days before antibiotics could make the difference in a gunfight. Or NOT!  Examples: Rasputin, Andrew "By the 'Tarnal" Jackson, Hugh Glass (not a gunshot victim, but still tough-as-nails), and those perps involved in the FBI Florida shootout!

[Books OToole]

If I recollect correctly:

Bill Hickock shot Dave Tutt with a .36 cal. Navy Colt at a distance of 70 paces.  The ball entered at Tutt's fifth rib on the right passed through his heart and exited at his fifth rib on the left.*

Books



* Per the coroner's report.  And he was DRT.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Not as much as many people think. Pure lead bullets aren't in the body long enough to mushroom much as they are passing through, unless a large bone is struck. It's even worse if they are pointy. The later .44 Henry Flat would have been far better as a 'stopper' as we now know that flat SWC tyoe bullets do cut a path through flesh better.

Several years back I went to the countryside to shoot some .44 Colt & .44 Russian BP handloads out of a revolver to practice. I happened across a poached deer that had been dead a day or so and decided to see for myself what my loads did as it was a rare opportunity. After all, it was already dead.    Most shots penetrated the deer completely and I recovered several slugs. I shot the deer laying on the ground at about 5 yds. FYI. The bullets were cast from wheelweights and few if any had any expansion whatsoever. These were the MAV bullets if I recall.

Here's a thread where a fellow shot some 44-40 BP pure lead loads out of a Marlin rifle into ballistic gel and the results will stun you as there is little expansion and many actually break in two:

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/team-44-40/148227-clear-ballistics-gel-44-40-a.html

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

It just occurred to me that my 1889 Reichsrevolver approximates the .44 Russian. I can't check my reloading records just now but will, and perhaps do some shooting tests in the next couple of months.

P.S; 24Dec15 I added this link. The 11.6 German Ordnance cartridge can be reloaded with a .44 Russian case shortened to .960 and .44S&W diameter lead bullets. Someone quotes COTW as having this cartridge, loaded with BP and a 262gr lead bullet, getting 700fps.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179677-Reichsrevolver-reloading

[Delmonico]

There was a whole herd of 42-45 caliber rounds in the era with about 1" cases give or take with similar ballistics.   They all would hurt if one was shot with them, all would cause you to bleed badly, maybe bleed to death or get a bad infection which in the day would most likely kill you also.

[Fox Creek Kid]

The .44 Russian with BP is gasping to even make 700 fps out a revolver. That's simply not enough speed to ensure bullet upset in a soft target. This video should dash any dreams you have of 'silver dollar' mushrooming:

[Coffinmaker]

Up close and personal, like, maybe, across a card table or a street, it (the ball or bullet) is going to smart, .. a lot.  The patch piece of
dirty shirt or britches isn't going to do ya any good either.
I haven't chrono'd my Snubbies, but I think my 44 Snubbies run between 450 - 500 FPS.  Sufficient to ruin one's weekend I would think.

Coffinmaker

[Fox Creek Kid]

Up close and personal, like, maybe, across a card table or a street, it (the ball or bullet) is going to smart, .. a lot.  The patch piece of
dirty shirt or britches isn't going to do ya any good either.
I haven't chrono'd my Snubbies, but I think my 44 Snubbies run between 450 - 500 FPS.  Sufficient to ruin one's weekend I would think.

Coffinmaker

This is true, but then as now it will be of no avail if the bad guy dies two days later of infection AFTER riddling you with bullets as well.

[Coffinmaker]

Except ........ even at close range, I don't believe in the word "overkill."  If sufficiently provoked, or frightened to reach for my pistol,
I will have emptied it into said perpetrator before walking away.  All of which is supposition anyway.  Because:
Anything ...... absolutely Anything ..... will be effective if you put the bullet in the right place.  Even a .22

Coffinmaker

[Fox Creek Kid]

Except ........ even at close range, I don't believe in the word "overkill."  If sufficiently provoked, or frightened to reach for my pistol,
I will have emptied it into said perpetrator before walking away.  All of which is supposition anyway.  Because:
Anything ...... absolutely Anything ..... will be effective if you put the bullet in the right place.  Even a .22

Coffinmaker

True CM, but despite what Hollywood shows us few people who are shot immediately cease & desist. Naturally, if they are shooting back in the meantime that bodes ill for the good guy. Here's a modern example that will make you think:

https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

[St. George]

I'll offer this - modern comparisons here aren't going to be valid, so let's stick to what the original post was about, and dial it back  a bunch of decades...

When men get shot - whether it be from a .22 of some variety, or something larger, there's one thing no one's really factored in, and that's the complete and utter shock that screams in the brain and says - 'I've been SHOT!!!'

This isn't 'shock' as in displacement of fluids, or making the target do cheetah flips, as in a John Woo movie - this is the mental shock that says to the brain that 'something' is wrong, something has penetrated me, something is making me bleed, it hurts - all coupled up into the disbelief that it just all went sideways, and I don't know quite how...

Believe me, 'that' is shock - and that type of shock kills just as quickly as a well-placed round does, because I've seen it happen.

Training and self-preservation and anger all play their parts in a hurry, and make men respond, but that's not the point - the point is that it takes very little to kill a man, and when factoring in the psychological effects that further debilitate him - it takes even less, because for 'some' men, it further weakens their resolve - essentially dooming them.

Getting shot 'hurts' - trust me on this - it refocuses one's attention a bit, unless the action around one is so intense that it goes un-noticed until later, and on the battlefield, wounding a man is preferable, because it removes him 'and' usually two of his buddies from the fight that opt to tend to him, because in today's world, it's the humane thing to do, and it's expected, so many will stop their fight right then and there and wait.

The movies and Westerns are replete with gunfights that never happened, but if the true activities of the times were recounted, no one would go to the movies or read a novel just to learn more about 'Those Thrilling Days Of Yesteryear' - watching crops get planted, and driving freight.

In answer to the original question - 'yes' - the round was effective when fired from a revolver, 'if' it connected...

It had to do 'that', first - and despite the many, many novels, most cowboys weren't crack shots with either hand - that's why they used long guns.

At close range, that slow, fat, lead round - even if it didn't penetrate a Buffalo coat completely - could transmit enough force to get the other guy to stop what he was doing long enough to take better aim, and maybe re-think his life's choices.

The round stayed in production a long time - and several that would follow shared very similar ballistics, so it would seem to've been bot popular and effective, otherwise it would not have kept filling cylinders.

So - this conversation has pretty well run its course, but it's still Winter, and some are still cabin-bound, so I'm certain something else will spark someone's imagination.

Scouts Out!

[Mike]

Very well put.