Advice needed on Sharps 1863

[hhughh]

I have a NIB--just received--Pedersoli 1859 with the sliding sleeve. It can be returned where I purchased it. I have located a very early--3 digit sn--Farmingdale Shiloh 1863. Is there the same step up in quality between DP guns and the early Shilohs as there is between DP and the Big Timber guns?
Thanks and I hope this was the right forum to ask this on.
Hugh

[mehavey]

I've had/shot/N-SSA'd a Sharps-Farmington since the early 80s
It has been an absolutely flawless jewel all these years.
`Can't imagine higher quality.

[Kent Shootwell]

I had a 3 digit Shiloh 54 calibre rifle that was a very fine rifle. Quality was alway tops at Shiloh. I would send the DP back with no hesitation! Only reason I don't have it today is a filthy thief broke in to my home.

[Kinchafoonee Kid]

I second the recommendation of the Shiloh.  I have an 1863 military rifle made in Big Timber when Wolfgang still owned the company.  The improved new model gas plate system of the Shioh is heads and shoulders above the sliding sleeve mechanism.  Steve Brooks makes a great bullet that can be used in conjunction with the Hahn tubes.

You can't go wrong with the Shiloh.

KK

[PJ Hardtack]

I've got both the Shiloh '63 Military Rifle and carbine, both in .50 calibre. Same pair in 50-70.

The '63's are fine shooters, just a pitb to clean, stripping the breechblock every time. But if you like SAharps rifles, this is where it all began unless you can find and afford a Slant Breech "Beecher's Bible".

[hhughh]

Rifle arrived--with a bonus. Inside the patchbox, a second nipple appears to be threaded into the wood. Anyone else ever seen this?  I will be posting pics in the next couple of days. Need to find the rear ladder sight for it and the front sight has lots of play, too, if anyone has any suggestions.

[Kent Shootwell]

The nipple being threaded into the stock inside the patch box was done by some one after the carbine left the factory. I did that to my 63 rifle as well. The front sight being loose is strange as they were a solid steel piece induction welded to the barrel. A close photo of the front sight would be of interest to me. Shiloh may have the rear sight for your carbine.

[Blair]

I do not recall if Shiloh  added the percussion nipple in the patch box of their firearms.
Within the time period, those using a patch box most often do. Beginning with the M-1841 model.
I will say this, except for a very few very early M-1863 Carbines, Sharps does not use a patch box on these carbines.
So, I have to ask... is this an M-1863 carbine, or a rifle we are talking about here? (M-1863 Rifles will have a patch box, not the carbine)
My best,
Blair

[hhughh]

Blair,
It's a carbine. Stamped new model 1863, but I also associate the patchbox with the 59 model.

[PJ Hardtack]

My '63 and '74 Military Rifles both have patch boxes. My '63 saddle ring carbine does not and it would have been an add on for my 50-70 '74 carbine. My Business Rifle lacks a patchbox.

I've yet to find a use for the patchbox and mine are covered with a lace on leather boot in any case.

If you check Seller's book, you could order a bewildering assortment of accessories and features for your Sharps, and they were widely customized as well.

[Professor Marvel]

If I could order accessories, I myself would prefer the coffee-grinder attachment on my sharps



yes, I am that committed to coffee ....

yhs
prof (caffeinated ) marvel

[PJ Hardtack]

Wow! I just got my pee-pee slapped for daring to mention duplex loading for my 50-70's on the 'Darksider' page ..... if you're interested, better check it out before it gets scrubbed.

On the topic of '63's, I got into a postal match using my '63 Military Rifle with three other '63 owners on the Shiloh forum. We shot out to 200 yds (200m for me as the sole Canadian) and it was 'free style' - x-sticks or bench at 150 and 200, but off hand at 50 and 100. Targets were appropriate for the distance. One of our number was in a wheelchair.

All of us were pretty green with '63's and it was very much a learn as you go proposition re: loads, cartridges, bullets, etc. None of us knew how to adjust the Lawrence rear sight on our rifles. It wasn't until after the shoot that we learned how. I had to hold at 1 o'clock on the 12" bull at 200 to hit centre.

For the benefit of others who may not know, here is the secret .....

Remove the screw that holds the sight between the protective sight ears of the sight base. Remove the sight and you will see a small screw that holds the sight base in position. loosen it and move it accordingly. Remember - move it in the direction you want the group to go!

It's not the most convenient sight to adjust, but it works and holds '0'. The front sight was not an option as it is a solid block welded to the barrel. Both my carbines have dovetailed front sights.

[wildman1]

That's what ya get fer "kissin yer sister" PJ  wM1

[PJ Hardtack]

Some people are a little remiss in their rifle shooting history .....

"Kissin' my sister be damned"! I refer the reader to "The Breechloading Single Shot Rifle" by Ned Roberts and Ken Waters.

"Once Du Pont No. 1 smokeless powder hit the market, it was immediately employed by the classic off hand Schuetzen riflemen in duplex loading.

Some riflemen - no one knows who - discovered that loading about 8 grains of bulk Du Pont No. 1 Rifle Smokeless Powder in the bottom of the shell as a priming charge, and filling the rest of the case with black powder with a card or blotting paper wad over it, resulted in as fine accuracy with a breech seated bullet or muzzle-loaded bullet, WITHOUT WIPING THE BORE AFTER EACH SHOT, as was obtained with black powder and wiping the bore between shots.

This smokeless powder priming caused the rifle to shoot very clean indeed by preventing the black powder residue from fouling the bore, SO THAT A HUNDRED SHOTS OR MORE COULD BE FIRED WITHOUT WIPING THE BORE and as fine accuracy secured with the last shot as with the first.

In a very short time, therefore, practically all Schuetzen  riflemen used this duplex loading until the manufacture of Du Pont No. 1 was discontinued in 1926."

So I'm in very good company when shooting duplex loads.

The reason it is disallowed in BPCR Silhouette matches is that there is no way of regulating the amount of smokeless used as a priming charge.

[wildman1]

I'm thinkin the "kissin" part comes when yer talkin about smokiless powder on a BLACK POWDER ONLY part of the forum. Been that way since day one as far as I know. Has nothing to do with history PJ. wM1

[PJ Hardtack]

Yeah, I posted on the wrong forum. I got the message.

I get a little touchy when people that don't know history or even shoot a particular discipline beak off without knowing whereof they speak.

But back to '63's ....

When ever I hear someone talk about acquiring one or ordering one from Shiloh, my recommendation is to go for a .50 calibre instead of the usual .54. The chamber is smaller so you can take advantage of a chamber length cartridge without pounding the bee-jeezuz out of yourself. Kinda like the guys that gotta have a 45-120 or 50-120 so they can play the "Mine's-bigger-than-yours" game.

The originals were nominally .52, but could accommodate any number of rounds that could obturate in the bore. That's why the best were converted to 50-70 post Civil War, but even their bores were oversize.

I've got a book by Peter Schiffer's where he tests many (12?) Civil War originals with original ammo as best as possible. It might surprise many to know that the Sharps '63 did not top the list for best overall performance. If anyone is interested, I'll post the ranking.

BTW - it was the 1855 Slant Breech Sharps the Brits tested, sending 5 regiments off to India armed with them. The first had 20.5" barrels, 1-78" twist and  were in .577 (same as the Enfield) calibre. The later versions had 18" barrels, 1-48" twist in .551.
Both employed the Maynard tape primer mechanism which the Brits did not like.

All were made on sub-contract for Sharps by Robbins & Lawrence of Windsor, Vermont. The later version was in service until February 1864, 2,400 in service from the original 6,000 purchased of both types. By the time the 'perfected' vertical breech '59 came along, the Brits were no longer interested, Robbins & Lawrence were facing bankruptcy and only the advent of the Civil War prevented that.

Addendum:

I just gave my '63 carbine a wipe down and bore snake. What a little beauty! Nicely figured DARK wood. I did an inventory of my paper rds and alas, only have a handful to go, all loaded with 60 gr Pyrodex pellets.

But - I did find a batch of .54's left over from my Shiloh Sporter days, loaded in Charlie Hahn's tubes. These were great as you could make the tubes as long or short as you wanted. The tubes snap onto the base of the Sharps 'Christmas Tree' bullets. Wish I knew someone locally who shot a .54 percussion I could pass them on to .....

[wildman1]

Well OK then. Just "beakin off" a bit more then. The original duplex loads were all BP made with 4f or 3f and followed with 3f or 2f for more consistant or faster ignition. I suppose you could even say shooting a flintlock by using a pick or a feather inserted into the touch hole on a flintlock before charging with powder and ball and then flipping a little 4f into the touch hole after priming the pan could be considered duplex loading also. It certainly can speed up the process of ignition. wM1 

[PJ Hardtack]

The loads you describe were also tried in loading cartridges during the Civil War to get a progressive burning rate. It worked but the extra care in loading them was deemed excessive for war time production.

The faux paper rds I've made up with 60 gr Pyrodex pellets are somewhat in the same vein as they have a smear of BP on the base to aid in ignition. They work well wrapped with a .510 lubed bullet in .50 calibre Sharps rifles and carbines.

You could make those up with BP, but you'd have to have a press to compress the powder moistened with something that would evaporate. Back in the day, they used "collodion", a compound usually associated with photography in the era. I believe that that this was used to make paper rds for Colt revolvers as well.

Addendum:

I didn't mention what the load was for my .50 percussion guns. It's 50 - 55 grs FFg. The former if I'm making chamber length cartridges, the latter if I'm going to shear the base with the 'cigar cutter'. It's not a lot of powder, but it propels the Lyman 515141 pretty well and it definitely does not kick the snot out of you like a full chamber of powder in a .54!