Problem re-loading Winchester brass for Win 38-55

[Good Troy]

Folks....Just got a '94 Legendary Frontiersman.  Reloaded about 20 rounds this morning.  I'm having similar problems with my reloads.   Last 1/8" of lever is tough.  I'll try resizing the loaded cartridge and see where that takes me.

thanks for this information....

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Folks....Just got a '94 Legendary Frontiersman.  Reloaded about 20 rounds this morning.  I'm having similar problems with my reloads.   Last 1/8" of lever is tough.  I'll try resizing the loaded cartridge and see where that takes me. Thanks for this information....

Good Troy; what are your bullet AND bore diameters. Getting the diameters of the bullet, bore and case neck balanced can be a bit of a trick, I am told.  Try some of Tom Horn's techniques.

Get the bullet diameter as close to groove diameter as possible AND STILL CHAMBER THE LOADED ROUND. The .38-55 was pre-SAAMI and these measurements don't always match.

[Tommy Reb]

When the loaded round is sized (resized) in the sizing die, the lead bullet itself is resized.  The .380 bullets you started with are no longer .380.  Pull one from a round so processed and measure it.

With a large bore requiring large bullets for best accuracy, I would suggest using the thinner walled Starline brass.  If you wish to use your Winchester brass, it can be inside reamed or outside turned in the neck area to fit your chamber with the larger bullet.

TR

[Good Troy]

Sir Charles,

My bore is 0.380.  This is based on the measurement of a lead round ball foreced (hammered) into the muzzle, not forced through the barrel entirely.  My bullets are as cast 255 grains from Missouri Bullet, and measure 0.381 to 0.383.  I have not sized them.  I'm using Starline Brass (short) prep'd with RCBS dies for the 38-55 Ballard/Winchester. 


When chambering a loaded round, or the blank which has no primer and seated bullet only, the last bit of the lever is tough to make up. I see no evidence of the bullet "bottoming out" on the barrel.  There are slight scratches on the case that appear to be from loading in the tube and our the lifter. 

The bullet appears to be whopperjawed (technical term for not on center-line/canted/cocked).  There is a slight bulge on one side of the case at the base of the bullet, but not the entire perimeter of the case.  I get this bulge on the case even when it isn't loaded with powder, so it isn't from overfill of BP.  I suspect this bulge is my culprit, thoug I see no offending marks/indications on the cartridge...note, I did make this inspection early this morning before work, so, it warrants a more thorough inspection. 

On first setting the seating/crimping die, I tried an OAL of 2.510".  I just could get the lever to close.  So, I dropped the OAL to 2.505".  This made it much easier...so I stuck with that for my loaded rounds.  Note that I have very little crimp on these...

When I set the bullet on the case to be seated, it isn't very stable....it acts like I need to expand the mouth more.  But, it there is plent of room to insert the bullet in the expanded mouth.  I'm beginning to wonder if I've "undersized" case/neck, thus the bullett is not able to seek a plumb position for seating. 

I plan to check the action with a sized only case.  As well, I'll check my sized case dimensions, and experiment with more expansion and OAL if necessary. 

Any other advice or comments are very much appreciated!

[wildman1]

Take one of your hard to seat cartridges and coat it with magic marker. insert it into the chamber and close the action. remove it and you will KNOW where it is over sized. wM1

[Good Troy]

Thanks Wildman!
I'm embarrased that I didn't come up with that myself, but not so much that I won't take the advise!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Sir Charles-  I thought of doing that, but then again as you stated the 30-30 cases are really thin.... probably would not hold up for too many reloads... might have to do that if the suppliers of brass get as bad as the powder makers are at present.  When you "fireformed the 30-30 brass for your 38-55.. What load in the 30-30 did you use for fireforming? 

Tom Horn; I was reviewing this thread and realized I didn't respond to your questions. I haven't done an endurance test but fire-formed .30-30 cases will hold up, with their economy being the major advantage. Their disadvantage, if any, is that they are about 10 thou' shorter than the original long WCF cases. If bullets being too large to chamber turns out to be a problem then using .30-30 cases which tend to be thinner at the neck might actually help.

To fire-form .30-30, or .32 Special cases to .38-55;  Prime, drop in 15 grains of Bullseye powder and as much paper towel crammed on top, up to the case mouth as you can force in. Go to the range or other safe place, load, point straight up & pull the trigger, After stepping out from under the rain cover! (I only say point up to encourage case concentricity upon firing. If it doesn't make sense at your range; - no biggie!)

[Good Troy]

Wildman and Sir Charles....thank you for your input.
I did as Wildman suggested.....tell-tale ring around the mouth of the case.
Added some more crimp, and presto!  It is just as smooth as my buddy's 94!
Now, let's see how the loads perform.  Will likely be Friday before I get the range.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Wildman and Sir Charles....thank you for your input.
I did as Wildman suggested.....tell-tale ring around the mouth of the case.
Added some more crimp, and presto!  It is just as smooth as my buddy's 94!
Now, let's see how the loads perform.  Will likely be Friday before I get the range.

Report expected, with photos of successful grouping.

[Good Troy]

Made it to the range Sunday with the Legendary Frontiersman 38-55, and my first reloads.
I was quite pleased with the results.  I a 3 shot group of 1" spread at 50 yds, and 2-1/4 at 100.
Hopefully I'll get some photographic evidence posted this evening.

Also, the rifle was quite pleasant to shoot, and a smooth action...
Now, the H&R Trapdoor carbine was another story, for another thread...I could use some better sights on it for sure!

[Good Troy]

Finally...the evidence....

38-55 Starline short brass
245 grain RNFP as cast (0.381" nominal diam) Missouri Bullet #1 Ballard
2.8 cc of Pyrodex R/S (all I could fit without compression die, which should be delivered this weekend)

I'm pleased.  Once I adjust windage, I'll be ready for a match.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Two inch groups at 100 yards is a very good start.

A few random points;
1. What back sight are you using. If you don't have one yet, get a SOULE Mid-Range. My Hi-Wall wears a Montana Vintage Arms. If your wallet is in better shape than your eyes, you might spring for a Malcolm telescopic sight?
2. If you are still using Pyrodex, get an opinion on whether it is a good idea to compress. I know about real gunpowder, but I haven't used much Pyrodex, but found accuracy only so-so.
3. What length are your Winchester cases? Could a mismatch of chamber length have been the cause of your trouble? But anyway, the Starlines work.
4. Perhaps experimenting with the location of the fore end on the front bag and care with your bench rest technique could yield results? Not trying to teach new tricks, but to improve groups from here requires dedication.

[Good Troy]

Sir Charles....
I'm using a stock semi-buckhorn.  I'll keep it for now, as I'm only shooting out to about 150 yds max in CAS matches.  I've used a Soule before on a friends Sharps...it is a fine sight!
I think you are right about Pryodex and compression.  I'll swap to straight up holy black when I use up this 1lb.
The starline I'm using is the short brass.  I don't have any Winchesters.  The issue I was having originally is that I didn't crimp near enough....hardly at all, and it was trying to crimp when I closed the action!

I should be going to the range tomorrow.  I'll see what I can do about getting her zero'd, and tightening up the groups...I'm a terrible rifle shot, but it isn't anything that a few several thousand rounds won't fix!!

By the way, that was two different elevation settings on the 100yd target.  And if you notice the 45 cal holes all over the place, that is from my 45-70 Trapdoor carbine.  It has (had) a front sight that is near impossible to see.  I put a new brass blade front sight on it.  I'll give it a try....Boy...I'm certainly off topic here!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

For a straight wall BP cartridge case, I have heard some of the BPCR crowd say that they leave some of the "bell" from the bullet seating stage.

In fact, they seem to be doing just that;- Finish the seating with the final closing of the action. Just a final touch, mind you, enough to ensure the bullet nose is tight to the "leade".

Have you seen this site?

http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf