Extra Cylinders

[Slowhand Bob]

DD, I have also found this to be pretty much a non issue with the Cabellas Pietta Remingtons.  I have owned more than a half dozen of the guns and somewhat over 20 spare cylinders and only had one pair, my most recent, that did not offer total interchangeability out of the box.  I guess things will depend somewhat on ones situations, posse size, fellow shooters attitude towards posse duties, etc, but there can be several major advantages to cylinder swaps at each stage and this is most true with the Remington revolvers.  It is not always so much that loading spares save time as much as the fact that the time is not required to be taken from ones range time when the cylinders are pre-loaded at home the night before.  Whether one swaps fresh cylinders between stages or just removes his cylinder to reload it, most Remingtons benefit greatly from the practice of being removed between stages as it negates the fouling problems that so many complain about with their Rems during a match.  Cleaning time is like reloading time, some hate it while others consider it as a part of their gun handling time.  The whole argument is becoming much less viable with the Cabelas/Pietta price increases on these spare cylinders.  They are no longer priced at $30 to $35 each, I am sad to say.       

[Octagonal Barrel]

O.K., after having weighed in and agreeing with the main thrust of the opinions above (that extra cylinder carry was probably not historical), I found something...  Gotta share it, since it at least seems to bear on the debate over historical practice.

A Guns & Ammo April 1968 article by Elmer Keith called, "Elmer Keith Tailors the Single Action!" focuses on gunsmithing to make Colt single actions as fast and practical as other more modern revolvers (hardly news to CAS shooters).  But it's a part of the intro I want to quote:

"Of the early single actions, the Remington .36 and .44 Civil War percussion revolvers, were much stronger, having a top strap over the cylinder, however removal of the cylinder was much slower and for this reason the Colts were the most popular in Civil War days.  Many cavalrymen and others as well, carried extra cylinders, loaded and capped.  Both the caps and the front ends of the cylinders were covered with melted tallow so they could withstand a hard rain and remain waterproof.  In action, the cavalryman had only to knock the wedge out of position, remove the fired cylinder, replace it with a loaded cylinder and he was back in business.  Many carried two to six extra cylinders as well as a pair of guns, .36 Navy, .44 Army or the big Dragoons.  Later, Colt, Richards, and others converted these percussion Colts to handle metallic cartridges, both rimfire and centerfire.  The S&W single actions of the Civil War were usually in .32 and .38 rimfire calibers.  They did not have the power of the percussions and were never as widely used."  [Note Keith assumes the wedge screw will retain the Colt wedge unlike with some modern Italian replicas, so the wedge will not come out all the way and get lost.]  He goes on: "I cut my teeth on an old, hopelessly ruined .36 Navy Colt, but my first good gun was a .36 navy for which I swapped all my flints, arrowheads, a good Barlow jack knife, and other sundries.  It accounted for a lot of small game after I had a good rear sight dovetailed into the rear end of the barrel and a small blade front sight also dovetailed near the muzzle.  That old gun would cut clover leaves at 20 yards from a seated back rest, two hand position with gun held between my knees.  I foolishly swapped it for an Army Special .38 Colt."

EGADS!  THE HERESY OF IT ALL!

1. Colts were faster to cylinder swap than Remmies.
2. Cylinder swap speed was a major reason for Colts being more popular than Remmies.
3. Cavalrymen swapped cylinders with wedged Colts, and didn't drop the wedges.
4. Cylinder swap prep was way more involved than we think, cylinders were sealed against a literal "rainy day."
5. Along with extra guns, up to six extra cylinders were at least somewhat common.
6. (And worst of all) Keith got a better deal on his first good cap-and-ball than I'll ever get from Cabela's!
Wow.

Keith's statement is an interesting problem since he knew Civil War veterans and learned to shoot the '51 from them, and was clearly as adept with a '51 as with anything else he ever held.  With his personal experience in cap-and-ball, it's hard not to think of him as credible - so his belief the Colt was faster for cylinder swapping than the Remmie comes as a surprise.  He doesn't cite sources, so we don't know for sure where his info on cylinder swapping came from.  If it was from the Civil War vets, the evidence is still anecdotal and could be challenged.  The vets could have remembered wrong or exaggerated their reports.  But still, it gives me real pause for reflection.  Was cylinder swapping historical?

What do you all think of them apples?

[Bruce W Sims]

I'm guessing, now....but it would seem like the next question would be WHEN and WHERE such a swap would take place.

I imagine that a person who used a pistol in combat was pretty judicious about his shots and didn't just "spray-&-pray". I also
get the idea of having a couple of guns so as to avoid "reloading" all together. But if a person HAD to switch cylinders
I'm trying to figure how that would work in a fire-fight. I was also thinking that if a couple of guys were pinned-down and one
had emptied his pistol, I'm not sure if his buddy could just hand him a spare cylinder........or could he? ....or WOULD he? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[hellgate]

It would be nice to read a diary or battle action report confirming such swaps. It could just be that Elmer was wrong. I find it much easier to swap out a Remington cylinder than a Colt. Also having the gun in 3 or 4 pieces  to assemble in a hurry is gonna get you sabered or shot. I'd like to see where the army bought a bunch of spare cylinders to issue or some sutler listing the number of cylinders sold to cavalrymen for such use. I suspect that Elmer started the whole subject mistakenly and Pale Rider resurrected the controversy.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Know nothing about cylinder swapping speed remington vs colt but if you define pistol range as 50 yards and the bad guys are running at you there is probably 10 seconds or less to shoot all 6 of your shots before you feel the bayonet.  Probably much quicker to draw the sword or saber if not already in the right hand or pick up a rifle with a bayonet and engage in close combat.  Time is even more compressed if riding a much faster horse or fighting cavalry

[St. George]

One salient fact - the only soldiers universally issued with revolvers were Cavalry.

Each Cavalryman got one revolver, one carbine and one saber.

Infantry got one rifle and bayonet.

Officers were issued revolvers and a sword (if Infantry) or saber (if Cavalry) or short sword (if Artillery).

That was the norm for both sides - we're not talking about irregular forces, since there was no particular uniformity involved and their equipment has always been different - but addressing Regular, Militia and Volunteer uniformed troops who did the bulk of the fighting and dying and who were supplied through a regularly established system of supply.

No reference is made in any of the Tactics books used at the time about cylinder changes, and there do not seem to be additional purchases made by the War Department for spare cylinders.

None is referenced in diaries of any of the major Cavalry battles like Brandy Station and Wilson's Creek and none is made in any after-action reports, though that isn't unusual in and of itself, because that sort of minutae wasn't deemed important, unless it affected tactics.

In the attack, Infantry would close, fire and attack with the bayonet - in the defense, they would fire, reload, fire at will and then defend with the bayonet - while Officers directed their efforts - firing sporadically, and not attempting to lay down their own Base of Fire, because 'their' duty was to direct their men.

In the Cavalry attack, the vast bulk of work was done with the saber and horse, with revolvers being secondary to the melee - and in Cavalry actions, there really wasn't a defense - that was called a 'retreat'.

Elmer Keith was a gun writer and innovator who gave us some great cartridges - but he was also a storyteller.

Scouts Out!

[Slowhand Bob]

I have never felt that swapping cylinders was a real world solution for 'normal' use in combat, whether military or personal UNLESS one has a second pistol and a bolder for cover while reloading the first.  I have seen no proof of actual practice, beyond the Eastwood movie sooo.  As to Colt vs Rem vs whatever, that can be settled by getting two equally proficient shooters to go head to head, starting with depleted guns and an extra cylinder.  Good old compition alwayssorts the wheat from the chaff...  Same applies for loading a Colt using the rammer against a Rem with a second pre-loaded cylinder.  What is faster and more practical under match conditions does not always translate to being the best for warfare or self defence.  As to Keith and other old magic shooters of the past, modern shooters must prove it to modern timekeepers and funny how their brags of being the 'bestest ever' seldom can be proven correct for more than a few years, at best, while the old timers only seem to get better and better in the years following their passing!!!  HMMMM, sounds like my bass fishing.  If it aint been written all we can do is set up scenarios to test for possibilities, and sadly that does not stand as proof of anything to do with 150 years ago.     

[Montana Slim]

Lots of good comments in this thread.Thnaks to all who post these wonderful C&B topics and chime-in....
C&B pistols have been my favorite play-toy since I was a lil' feller.

Extra cylinders installed in the pistol in your hand or holster sounds good to me.
The leather cartridge pouch on the cavalryman was to hold packets of 6-each paper, skin, or compressed water-proof cartridges. Using the best pre-formed cartridges, a C&B pistol can be reloaded after firing 6-rounds nearly as fast as a Colt 1873 cartridge revolver (when unloading the fired cartridges is included). I've demonstrated via a one-round reload required at an early CAS shoot. Local interpretation required an actual re-load of one cartridge, and was not allowed to cap an additional chamber or seperate gun at that time. Fortunately I had some paper cartridges with me. The posse was more than a little surprised...dare I say "impressed" with true 1860's high-tech?...they marvelled no doubt at how quickly I loaded the one paper cartridge, spun it around, capped it, and spun it under the hammer...easy enough to see the loaded chamber. Ok,...not like I was under fire or anything, but I guess everyone was peering over my shoulder to see if I would fumble. Pistols were for close combat in the war..I'm sure a cavalyman would change weapons or tactics when needed rather than try to reload out in the open on horseback while taking serious fire.

I DO have 5-6 extra cylinders (colt & remington)...just in case I damage one during dissassembly/cleaning. A number of folks have converted their C&Bs to shoot them metal cartridges and were ready to dispose of them cheaply.

Slim

BTW...Thanks to all our vets for their service. Unfortunately I know how under appreciated you are at the the federal level. 40 lashes to the boobs who pushed the M-16 into combat too quickly. It served a lesson not to be forgotten...certainly not lost on me.

[Navy Six]

Octagon Barrel, thanks for referencing that Guns & Ammo article by Elmer Keith. I have kept that issue all these years as it was directly responsible for my ongoing sixgun addiction, along with anything else Elmer wrote on the subject. I find his reports on the advice he received from actual Civil War veterans, from both sides of the conflict, very interesting as I compare it to the methods used today.
By the way, have several of Keith's books personally autographed as well as one letter of correspondence which I received detailing the loading of 45 Colt cartridges. Needless to say this is all cherished material.

[Noz]

Yup. I have several extra cylinder and each one is installed in a gun.

[Crow Choker]

The only extra cylinders I have is for my Remington C&B. I at times will load all three cylinders when I go shooting (no I don't cap the off-gun ones until installing the cylinder on the gun), but I don't have spares for any of my Colts(except for one) due to the fact of the hassle of changing cylinders on a Colt. I figure all the process involved will only cause more wear on the gun(may be way off, but I'm stickin to the thought). Anyway I can load a cylinder on a Colt in the time it takes to dismantle the whole thing and reassemble anyway. Need to get out any burn some black and make some smoke and boom-all this reading and thinking of shootin C&B's has got me all 'riled' and I haven't been smokin' any Cuban cee-gars (Open Range  )

[Lefty Dude]

A properly fitted Colt barrel wedge will remove with very little resistance. I shoot only Colts and all have the wedge fit so I can use my cap push stick with a slight side ways pressure to dis-lodge the wedge retaining spring. Then I can pull the wedge with my fingers.
I never use a Mallet or such to install the wedge.
I have spare cylinders but never use them for competition, they are just spares.