Help with Officer rank shirt placement ?????

[Marshal J.D.Lightning]

Hi Gentlemen,
I need your help please as I can not locate the information I need so I came to the place where I know I will get the RIGHT information 

Can someone please tell me where to place a set of Captain rank bars on my 1902 pattern olive drab shirt (this is the one without the pocket flaps) All the pictures of these worn by the punitive expedition are not clear enough for me to see the right location & my searches on the internet are soooo confusing 

Thanks again for your time & help.
All the best
JD

[Drydock]

The regulations are sketchy on this, as wearing rank on the shirt was a relatively new thing, but everything I've seen says they go on the collar, in the same orientation you would expect to see today.

[Marshal J.D.Lightning]

Thanks Drydock, but that's the problem. What is the correct orientation ?

[St. George]

Use the leading edge of the collar - line up the long edge of the Captain's rank device evenly and proportionately - about 1" in from the collar's edge - then pin in place.

Pinback - 'not' clutchback - those weren't invented yet.

Done right, they should look like a picket fence if one were to button the collar before adding the tie.

Being considered 'campaign clothing', rank wasn't always worn on the uniform shirts - the men knew what their Officers looked like and that was enough.

Scouts Out!

[Drydock]

What he said!   

[cpt dan blodgett]

Thanks Drydock, but that's the problem. What is the correct orientation ?

OMG can we really discuss "Correct Oreintation"?  now a days any and all are ok

[cpt dan blodgett]

Back in the day I have been told even the army used two sized rank similar to the navy, a smaller version for shirts and a larger (what is now normal sized Army Rank) on epaulettes.  Not sure which was correct for hats.   1902 Time Frame all rank would be false embroidered.  I found a supplier on E-Bay that had both sizes 4 -5 years ago when I started wearing WB uniform

Modern day pretty close repros can be obtained from places that sell rank insignia to police and fire.

[St. George]

It was up to the individual Officer if he even wanted to bother with rank devices while on campaign or in shirt-sleeve order.

There were two sizes - but either could be worn on campaign.

'False Embroidered' all-metal pinbacks could be had in several designs - all designs featured plain borders - but there were an equal number of smooth devices that looked much like raised loaves, as well - either is correct for the time frame.

Some are hollow-backed - some solid - some plated - some solid silver - it all depended on what the individual Officer had in his bank account.

For that matter - some even had the owner's initials engraved on the reverse.

Then - the shirt-sized Branch devices came out...

Scouts Out!

[Pony Racer]

The sizes are very close even if you go back to before the turn of the century.

if you google it most uniform rules of the armed services uniform regs are available on the internet.

The interesting piece is that for Naval and Revenuers like myself - the modern day chiefs rank is actually part of your collar device in the nicer uniforms.

If you look close at the pictures from right around the turn of the century you will see them in the pictures and also note it on the color plates for uniforms.

The only difference between the modern day USCG chief rank and what officers wore sideways with their collar rank is that instead of chain fouling the anchor there was "line" fouling the anchor.

Pretty cool - I think.

[Marshal J.D.Lightning]

Thanks Gentlemen.
As always a wealth of knowledge & very very helpful. Just what I needed to know. The pictures I have seen of some Officers in the punitive expedition showed the collar rank of various sizes but I could not clearly make out the correct placement & was not sure if it was the same as WW1 & WW2 so wanted to check with you Guys.
Thanks for your time & help.
JD