** Additional Photos Added ** Picked up an interesting new Spencer Rifle

[Roscoe Coles]

I took my 7 month old son to his first gunshow on Saturday and wandering through the small local show I came across a 3 band 1860 Spencer rifle with a 71xx serial number for $550.  It was in nice shape over all, with a good patina (faint traces of blue and case color in protected areas, some original stock finish, etc.), but it was missing the rear sight, the internal magazine tube, the cartridge follower and the cartridge follower spring.  I have several of these parts from working on my Spencer Carbine and almost all the rest (a complete sight is hard to find) are available from S&S.  Even more interesting, upon examination, I found it has an old conversion to centerfire.  The action is very smooth and solid, smoother than any other Spencer I recall handling (and I have handled and worked on a number of originals and repros).  The bore was very dirty so I assumed it was just bad, but  when I got it home I found that it had been bored out to be a smooth bore.  So, what I think I have is a civil war rifle, converted after the war into a singe shot shotgun.  This is known to have been done by wholesalers after the war and would explain the lack of a rear sight, inner magazine tube and possibly the cartridge follower (they are not required and might cause problems with operation or use as a shotgun).  

Needless to say, I plunked down the cash and am very tickled with my find.  I am finding the missing parts and giving it a sympathetic cleaning.  It has a couple of cracks in the buttstock that I am working with (the inner magazine tube was a a bit loose which allowed the stock to wobble and put a little stress on the stock at the wrist).  I will post some pictures when I get the chance, especially of the centerfire conversion, which is entirely different than the S&S style.  

I just saw Two Flints post on checking serial numbers, so I will post the serial number to him and see if I really struck it lucky.  

Some days it pays to get up.  Here are the photos posted by Two Flints:









My photos aren't that clear and sharp.  Two Flints did the best he could with my originals.

Regarding the photos of the "new" 1860 Spencer 3 band discovery.  It's serial number 7130, which according to the table of early Spencer deliveries in Marcot's book was delivered on June 16, 1863. In the Springfield Research Service books  the closest serial # to mine is 7134, which is a carbine which went to the 1st Vol Cav.  Most of the rifles listed in Vol. 4 above and below 7130 went to the 8th Indiana Vol Cav, though one rifle in this range went to the 9th Michigan Vol Cav.  

Update . . . more photos and information

Attached are some additional photos and information regarding the photos of the block from my new Spencer, showing the centerfire conversion.  The block has been drilled at an angle so that one end of the firing pin is under the hammer and the other end is in the center of the block.  The pin is retained by a piece that looks like an original rimfire firing pin.  This part is held in by the original firing pin screw but does not move back and forth as the original pin does.  There is a slot cut in the new part and there is a pin in the side of the firing pin that runs in this slot, which allows the pin to move back and forth.  There is no firing pin spring to retract the centerfire pin.  I have not taken it apart yet, to see if there is room for a firing pin spring.  The centerfire conversion parts appear to have the same patina as the rest of the breach block, indicating that it was not done recently, and is thus probably not a reenactor conversion.  





                                                         (Photos Posted by Two Flints)


Roscoe

[Hangtown Frye]

Wow, that is really cool!  I have no question in my mind that it went to war with some unit or another, be it Western or Eastern theatre of war.  Either the 8th Indiana, which as I recall you saying was with Wilder's Brigade at Chickamauga, or the 9th Michigan (weren't they part of Custer's "Wolverines" at Gettysburg? I know that the 7th and 8th Michigan were) hardly matters, you have an extremely historical piece there!  Good luck in tracking down its record, either way it's a fine piece.  Now you have a nice Spencer collection! 

What is weird though is how it found its way "North" after conversion to CF shotgun!  What a fascinating firearm!

Cheers!

Hangtown Frye

[Roscoe Coles]

Capt. Frye (if that is your name!)

Thanks.  I am still doing some research but, from what I have found so far, the 8th Indiana Cav. was not in Wilder's Brigade, but according to one account, fought next to the Lightning Brigade at Chikamauga.  Early in the war, they were the 39th Indiana Infantry but were later reorganized, mounted and renamed the 8th Indiana Cav.   They appear to have been more of a mounted infantry unit than a true Cav. outfit, and they were equipped with Spencer rifles at the Battle of Chikamauga.  I hope to find more, but most of the online information available is basically the same.   

Yeah, its a mystery how the gun ended up in Anchorage, Alaska.  I am sure that it has an interesting story to tell. 

I have been cleaning the gun and it is coming along very nicely.  The bore is now quite clean, though the rifling is gone.  I ordered almost all the missing small parts, hopefully they are in good shape when they come.  Still need the magazine tube, but that can wait a bit. 

Roscoe

[Coal Creek Griff]

Are you thinking of reclining the barrel?

CC Griff

[Roscoe Coles]

Its an Idea.  The other option would be to make a new barrel (which I did for my carbine) and keep the original barrel as is.  It would be fun to make it a shooter again.

[Coal Creek Griff]

Yes, I suppose "reclining" the barrel would be an interesting idea. That's my phone's auto correct function in action. I'm glad you understood what I meant (relining)!

CC Griff

[Roscoe Coles]

So, interesting developments...  I have been cleaning the bore on the Spencer and it was coming out bright, but absolutely smooth (no traces of rifling).  I have also been doing some reading on the 56-56 guns (my other is a 56-50) and came across some bore measurements, which vary quite a bit between guns.  For kicks, I measured the bore diameter at the muzzle to see how far it was bored out and it measured .547, which is within the bore diameter variation I found during my reading.  I also looked down the barrel from the breach and now that the barrel is clean, I can see that the chamber is still there.  So, tonight I got out some Birchwood Casey lead remover cloth and ran some patches of it down the bore and wonder of wonders, I can now see very faint traces of rifling for a large portion of the bore.  Taken together, this might mean that it is not in fact a smoothbore, but is just just badly leaded.  I have heard of old guns being so badly leaded that the rifling was invisible, but in 30 years of buying, selling and fixing antique guns, I have never actually seen one.  I will keep working on the bore and see what happens. 

Two questions.  1. Does anyone have chamber specs for the 56-56 (so I can compare then to the chamber on this gun) and 2. does anyone have any reccomendations on how to remove a lot of lead from a bore without doing any damage?

[El Supremo]

Hello Roscoe:

One proven method to remove stubborn leading is to TIGHTLY plug the chamber, stand the barrel vertically and fill the barrel with KROIL or another penetrating oil.  Don't use harsh chemicals or modern bore cleaners.  Some contain ammonia, which can get under leading and etch the barrel!  The penetrating oil will get under the leading and lift it from the underlying metal, but this action takes time.  There could be some nasty pitting under the leading.  Try to avoid using stainless steel brushes because they can damage the relatively soft barrel steel.  Avoid steel wool until you see how the penetrating oil performs.  Patience!  Don't rush the process. 

Be sure NOT to distort the chamber WALL at 9:00 where it is thin!

t could take days, if not weeks for the penetrating oil to fully work. 

Regards,
Kevin

[Roscoe Coles]

I have been alternating between soaking in Hoppies, passes with a bronze brush and patches of lead remover and the bore is getting better and better.  The rifling is still faint, but there is more of it and I am starting to see the actual edges of the lands.  I have not been able to find Kroil yet, but I picked up a bore squeegy (sp) to seal the bore for a good soaking when I get some penetrating oil.    I am also looking for some bronze wool.

A good friend offered me some of the traditional, and by far the most effective lead removal material...mercury!  But for some reason, my wife didn't want me to have a big bottle of it in the house.  Go figure.  (In case you don't know, mercury amalgamates with lead and is a very effective lead remover).

The small parts I needed came in from Lodgewood and they are in great shape.  I am still looking for an original 1860 sight slider  and the small screw at the top of the sight ladder.  A new magazine, with the centerfire follower is on the way from S&S. 

I still need to do a little work on the stock and the butplate, but I am very pleased with how things are coming along.

[El Supremo]

No on the mercury!  Wifey very smart. 

View UTUBE -  "Elemental mercury visualization" .  Unless you are trying to get a dsmaged brain.  Google "mad as a hatter".
Please give us your reaction.  Tx.

Regards,
Kevin

[Arizona Trooper]

Check with Ed Knisely for the sight ladder. He usually has them. edknisely(at)aol(dot)com

An electronic lead remover will get that lead out. It isn't fast, but it works great. Instructions are attached. I once picked up a Whitney Kennedy in 45-60 that had the worst lead fouling I ever saw. A couple sessions with this gadget took out enough lead to make a 22 bullet! It turned out to be a great shooter!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Are you thinking of reclining the barrel?

CC Griff

I wouldn't take that lying down!

[Coal Creek Griff]

 

[Roscoe Coles]

No on the mercury!  Wifey very smart. 

View UTUBE -  "Elemental mercury visualization" .  Unless you are trying to get a dsmaged brain.  Google "mad as a hatter".
Please give us your reaction.  Tx.

Regards,
Kevin

Yes, you are quite right, my wife is very smart...but I am well aware of the issues with mercury. 

[Roscoe Coles]

Check with Ed Knisely for the sight ladder. He usually has them. edknisely(at)aol(dot)com

An electronic lead remover will get that lead out. It isn't fast, but it works great. Instructions are attached. I once picked up a Whitney Kennedy in 45-60 that had the worst lead fouling I ever saw. A couple sessions with this gadget took out enough lead to make a 22 bullet! It turned out to be a great shooter!

Thanks for the lead on sight parts.  I have thought about an electronic lead remover, but they are not without issues.  They have been known to etch barrels (though that may be redundant in this case).  I am soaking the bore in penetrating oil at the moment and will see what comes of that.  Perhaps I will give the electronic lead remover a try later. 

I have not been getting much lead out of it with a brush, but the only bronze brushes I can find locally that fit the bore are 28/20 gauge shotgun brushes, which are softer/less aggressive  than rifle or pistol brushes.  I have also been unable to find bronze wool.  Some things are hard to find locally in Alaska.