Question about old Rolling Block chamberings

[The Trinity Kid]

Howdy y'all.  Got another question for ya'.

What/when was the first rolling block to fire a cartridge that could be counted on to whomp harder than a Winchester '66 at 300+ yards? 
Want to keep my history strait in another book that is taking place between mid 1866 and early 1868.

--TK

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

http://books.google.ca/books?id=jAmkAvoUKIEC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=remington+split+breech+carbine&source=bl&ots=45ZOojSsZY&sig=pj76qZn8AG3MvjKe1mCFf2pQ6Zk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WwYdU-6qINbsoASxxYHoCQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=remington%20split%20breech%20carbine&f=false

Remington-Rider split breech carbine, small frame. 1864-5,  .44 rimfire.  about 15,000 made under contract at Savage.

Remington-Rider split breech carbine, large frame. 1864-5,  56-50 Spencer rimfire.  Manufactured at Savage after the above contract was complete.

None were delivered before the end of the Civil War. I'm not sure of their service history but some must have been sold out of service as I've heard that the Goodnight trail crew were equipped with split breach carbines.

The Remington Rolling Block rifle was first made in .58, likely a rimfire but some were made in centerfire, for cadet and naval service. Later,1870, carbines and rifles were entered in army trials, in .50-70 centerfire.

Remington seems to have been preoccupied with foreign military sales for many years. Some may have reached the West between 1869 and 1873 as Mexico acquired a mish-mash of rolling blocks. In 1874 Mexico purchased many RB rifles in .43 Spanish, and carbines in .50 cal.

Commercial sporting and target rifles were marketed in 1868 and for many years thereafter. A quick look in my copy of Cartridges of the World, 3d Ed, shows most of the large Remington cartridges being introduced between 1876 and the early 1880s. My guess is that .50-70 was the most likely cartridge chambered in early sporting rifles.

Thanks for your question, as I now know more than I did earlier today.  Scroll through the linked google book for more, and to confirm my summary.

[ndnchf]

Sir Charles - nice summary, I think you covered it pretty well.  

I'll only add that I have and shoot a .58 centerfire rolling block made in the late 1860s.  At that time there was a pile of surplus Civil War muskets available dirt cheap.  In the post-war economy, Remington was looking for a way to build rifles at the lowest possible cost.  So they acquired a bunch of old model 1861 and 1863 Springfield muskets, cut them up and mated all the parts to their large rolling block actions.  This included the barrel, stocks and almost all the small parts.





Mine is chambered in .58 Roberts, which is a little longer than the .58 Carbine round, but shorter than the .58 Berdan.  I load it with 60gr of 2F and a 490gr., .591" minie'.  Quite a bit more wallop than a .44 Henry.  

Here is an original .58 Roberts cartridge:



Here one of my .58 Roberts rounds next to a .32 Long Colt for comparison:



It's not the first post war big bore round, but one of the early ones for sure.  Remington sold them to state militias, overseas and on the open market - anyone who would buy them.    

[The Trinity Kid]

Wow, thanks guys.  I'm thinking that Mr. Cowboy in my book will be getting a .58 centerfire.    Of course, that may not be til the sequel, but....

--TK

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Trinity;  Perhaps our hero was dazzled by his first sight of a split breech carbine, and yearned for something even better.

[The Trinity Kid]

It's an improvement over an old Colt revolving carbine.   

--TK

[ndnchf]

A .58 would be an authentic option, and not the usual run-of-the-mill rifle.

[Shawnee McGrutt]

That round would leave an impression on a fellow!

[The Trinity Kid]

That is precisely what I wanted, ndnchf!  Right now, all there are is run of the mill.  Colts, Remmie revolvers, Winchester, Henry, Spencer, and a Springfield musket.
 Right now, the hero of the story is only armed with "standard" Remington Revolvers, a Winchester 66 (how he got it so early will be explained in the sequel  ), and a normal Springfield .58 Musket.  However, he will have an "issue" requiring multiple shots at long range, with speed, and will realize that his musket is not incredibly useful for that.  Enter the .58 Rolling Block.  

I just started piecing this together while posting.    That's how I roll, Jack!

--TK

[ndnchf]

Its definitely not run-of-the-mill.  Every time I take it to the range and people see these cartridges, there is wonder and amazement. Its actually not bad to shoot. A compressed load of 60gr of Goex or Swiss 2F has a nice crack to it, but recoil is moderate. The fun factor is off the chart!  I'm sure you can weave the mighty .58 into an intriguing story.   

[The Trinity Kid]

On a different note....

Say I found a RB in .58 Roberts that happened to make its way to my gun cabinet (hasn't happened yet.    ),  What would be the best way to get brass?  Cut down a different case, or does a company make brass?

--TK

[ndnchf]

I have lathe turned cases from Rocky Mountain Cartridge Company, made from a chamber cast.  The rim/base size is very similar to the .577 Snider and I've heard of some folks using Snider brass.  Also the brass 24 gauge Magtech shoptgun shells are another option.  From what I've learned Remington made these for several different length .58 cartridges; .58 Carbine, .58 Roberts and .58 Berdan.  They are all basically the same except for length, but you need to measure the chamber to be sure.  The .58 Roberts cartridge is nominally 1.37" long.  My chamber is about 1.400" long.  CH4D makes dies.

These rifles were referred to as "Transformed" rifles by Remington.   They come up on Gunbroker now and then.  In fact there is one there now:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=398022313 

Here is a thread about loading for mine I started last year:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,50010.0.html

[Gomezy3k]

I'll only add that I have and shoot a .58 centerfire rolling block made in the late 1860s.  At that time there was a pile of surplus Civil War muskets available dirt cheap.  In the post-war economy, Remington was looking for a way to build rifles at the lowest possible cost.  So they acquired a bunch of old model 1861 and 1863 Springfield muskets, cut them up and mated all the parts to their large rolling block actions.  This included the barrel, stocks and almost all the small parts.

Mine is chambered in .58 Roberts, which is a little longer than the .58 Carbine round, but shorter than the .58 Berdan.  I load it with 60gr of 2F and a 490gr., .591" minie'.  Quite a bit more wallop than a .44 Henry.  

It's not the first post war big bore round, but one of the early ones for sure.  Remington sold them to state militias, overseas and on the open market - anyone who would buy them.    

I have a question for you, does your Rolling Block have the bar extractor?   I was scrounging through a swap meet and came across a Swedish 1873 Remington Rolling Block action.  It has a slot for the bar extractor.  I am thinking of having it build into a rifle.  I had thought a .50-90 might be good, but since seeing your .58, I fell in love with the idea.   I already have a couple of .58 caliber muzzle loaders so having a center fire rifle of the same caliber would be awesome....  The hard part is finding a .58 barrel that will fit. 

Back when I was thinking of doing the .50-90, I asked around and got quotes around the $1900 to $2500 range.  For that much I could buy a new rifle.   Plus they were going to mill the hammer so they would put the round extractor in, instead of the bar extractor.   I would love to get this shooting but need some suggestions and help to keep the price down...
 

[ndnchf]

Yes, it does have the bar extractor.  It also has the concave breeech block where it rolls under the barrel, this was only used until 1870, then they changed to the flat shape.  The other unique thing about the .58 RRBs is the so-called "wings" on the breach block face.  The .58 case rim is so wide that the standard breech block face would not fully support the case head.  Not so much a big deal today with solid head cases, but way back then with balloonhead cases, they could blow out without proper support.  So Remington added wings to the breech face to fully support the case head.  On the very earliest .58 cal rifles they dovetailed a plate into the block face with the extra width to support the case head.  This is what my rifle has.  Later .58 rifles were made with a new block with the wings in one piece.  Here is my block, you can see the dovetail plate:



The wings may not be readily apparent, but compare this to a standard block face and you'll see what I mean.

As to a barrel, you could do just what Remington did and use a musket barrel.  But the drawback of this, as with my rifle is the slow twist;  1-72".  The means a short bullet is needed to stabilize.  The other alternative is to buy an original .58 RRB like mine.  They come up regularly, like the one on GB now.  I was fortunate in that previous owner made a chamber cast and had cases made for it by RMC and they came with the rifle.  This is the best way to go in my opinion, I wouldn't fool with thin brass 28 ga shotgun shells like some people advocate.  The RMC cases are very strong and work great in my rifle.  The only thing I had to do with the RMC cases was ream the neck.  Since they are lathe turned from bar stock, they are thicker than normal and would not allow a groove size bullet to seat in the case.  I picked up a reamer for $10 off Ebay and solved the problem easily. 



I used a lathe because I have one, but it is not necessary.  You could do it in a drill press, or perhaps RMC would do it for you.

Hope this helps.

[kmaz]

 
    Hello I recently acquired a Remington rolling block model 1879  that was re chambered sometime in the past to 11 mm Mannlicher. I would like to shoot this gun and hunt with it occasionally.My question is does anyone have any reloading information for this round or know where I could find information about this .Thank you

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Here is the chart I usually consult;

http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/metric.htm

I don't see 11 mm Mannlicher but have a look yourself.  You might have to do a chamber cast

I see a 10.75 Mannlicher, but that is a rimless deal.  Do you have any other information about this rifle?

PS:  I found a reference that says that 11 mm Mannlicher is the same as 11.15 x 58R Werndl;

http://www.shootersforum.com/blackpowder-cartridge-shooting-loading/11816-11-15x58r-blackpowder-cartridge.html

[kmaz]

  Thank you Sir Charles for the information. As far as more information about this rolling block. I read that 300 Argentinian rolling blocks were re chambered in the 50s to 11mm mannlicher/werndl.The bore is bright and shines the outside still has most of the tinning as I understand Remington applied to rifles for export to south america.I'm still looking for reloading info

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

First you have to find cases, and cast bullets.  For this a chamber cast and bore slugging are necessary.  If it is anything like my old Argie, now rebarreled, chamber case neck clearance may turn out to be excessive. Then look for cases, or conversion possibilities from cases with similar rim, base and case length measurements

For Black powder you will need LOTS of FFg or even Fg.

For smokeless powders look to data for similar cases such as .43 Spanish, French GRAS or Mauser. 4198, 5744, or such, come to mind.

[kmaz]

I will definitely get the bore slugged and a chamber cast.Thanks again for the information.