Some .44-40 questions

[Roland]

Howdy I have some .44-40 questions, mostly convering BP loading. Firstly, what is the brass life like on the .44-40? How many reloads can you expect to get out of a case? How does it compare to say .45 Colt in this regard?

Secondly, does anyone load .44-40 (black powder) on a dillon 650? I have a 650 with conversion kits for multiple calibers, but I am not sure if reloading BP rounds on it is a good idea or not, I guess it would take some specialist equipment, maybe manual powder feeding, unless there are some good BP measures that can be put on a press? I see Lee has dies as well so I guess in practice it should be possible, I know a guy did it with a 550.




I've been planning so long to acquire all a lever and SAA in .44spl but the problems of finding what I want in Finland are quite difficult. Import from abroad is my only option and even then there are now very long waiting times. .44-40 and .45LC are far more common and more quickly available, so I feel maybe the proper historical calibers are back on the table again.

[bear tooth billy]

I use starline brass, it is a little thicker wall than Rem or Win. I was having some bulging issues when I started loading 44/40,the thicker wall took care of that. I've reloaded my brass a lot, once in a while one will split. The one thing I've noticed is that it gets
shorter (probably from sizing). If I have 300 brass I clean and load all of them to try to keep them an equal length, if some get too short I pitch them. I load on a single stage press.

                                          BTB

[w44wcf]

Roland,
44-40 brass has thinner case walls in the neck than the 45 Colt does, that is why it seals the chamber better and prevents blow by.
The thinner neck wall thickness also makes the brass a bit more fragile in the neck, but I have never run into a problem in reloading it.

With a good lot of brass, you could expect 20+ reloads from a case. I have never experienced the case shortening that BTB has. If anything cases will lengthen a bit over time in my experience.

I reload on a single stage press. Here is a video that shows the Dillion / 44-40....
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,39252.msg499233.html#msg499233

w44wcf

 

[w44wcf]

Roland,
44-40 brass has thinner case walls in the neck than the 45 Colt does, that is why it seals the chamber better and prevents blow by.
The thinner neck wall thickness also makes the brass a bit more fragile in the neck, but I have never run into a problem in reloading it.

With a good lot of brass, you could expect 20+ reloads from a case. I have never experienced the case shortening that BTB has. If anything cases will lengthen a bit over time in my experience.

I reload on a single stage press. Here is a video that shows the Dillion 550 / 44-40....
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,39252.msg499233.html#msg499233

w44wcf

 

[Fingers McGee]

Howdy I have some .44-40 questions, mostly convering BP loading. Firstly, what is the brass life like on the .44-40? How many reloads can you expect to get out of a case? How does it compare to say .45 Colt in this regard?

Secondly, does anyone load .44-40 (black powder) on a dillon 650? I have a 650 with conversion kits for multiple calibers, but I am not sure if reloading BP rounds on it is a good idea or not, I guess it would take some specialist equipment, maybe manual powder feeding, unless there are some good BP measures that can be put on a press? I see Lee has dies as well so I guess in practice it should be possible, I know a guy did it with a 550.

I reload 44-40 with BP on a Hornady L-N-L progressive press with RCBS dies using the standard powder measure without any problems, and have used the Hornady BP powder measure with good results.  The standard measure is easier to adjust though.  I've been loading 44-40 for a goodly number of years and cannot recall the last time I crunched a case.  I lose more cases to the brass gods than I have that split.  My brass of choice is Starline; both in plain brass and nickel plated.  The nickel cases are a lot easier to clean than the brass so I kinda like them more.  I get probably 10+ reloads from a case - and that's just a guess.  The lot of nickel cases I'm reloading now are about 4 years old and I have some brass ones still that are 5 or 6 years old.  

I quit using 45colt about 10 years ago, so can't be of any use there.

[Roland]

Thanks for the replies, loading and working with .44-40 seems a lot less daunting now. I might start off loading it on a handpress to begin with though.

Whats a suitable grain size for BP for .44-40 btw? There's a local store that has Swiss 3FG powder in stock, that a good size? I want to use real BP rather than substitutes.

[sail32]

I found that a 0.430 inch expansion plug for a Lee Die from Track of the Wolf, makes loading the bullets much easier and a Lee Factory Crimp die is a very good investment.

[Fingers McGee]

Thanks for the replies, loading and working with .44-40 seems a lot less daunting now. I might start off loading it on a handpress to begin with though.

Whats a suitable grain size for BP for .44-40 btw? There's a local store that has Swiss 3FG powder in stock, that a good size? I want to use real BP rather than substitutes.

I use fffg blackpowder in all my 44-40 loads.  Brand usually depends on who's got it on sale at the time.

[Roland]

Apologies for hijacking my own thread, but I guess I should put up .357 on the table too. The availability of 38/357 brass in comparison to either 44-40 or .44spl is a hard thing to overlook. Practical, but not genuine, which is better?

Anyone here reload .357 or 38spl for black powder? How big a difference power-wise is there between a fully loaded .38spl BP round and one in .44-40, which one is better suited for plinking at longer ranges (100-300 yards at metal targets)? That's something I want todo with this rifle.

I read about the Biglube bullets and as a caster I think that's the way I want to go regardless of what caliber I choose.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Rating power in comparison to other calibers is not an exact science.  Generally speaking BP cartridge velocities fall within a restricted range, so comparisons are most meaningful if you look at bullet weight. A .38/357 generally uses bullets in the 150 gr. area while 44/45s use he 200-250 gr. range.  Look at the velocity of your load by all means but your .44-40 will have a substantial power edge.

Now, if you wish to compare a 38/357 to the shorter Cowboy .45 Special using the short EPP-Ugg bullet using a 155gr. bullet, you are looking at an approximate tie in power. Going the other way, in times long past a .38 could be obtained with a 200 gr. "Police" loading.  Such a load was adopted by the Brits in the .38 S&W case as calibre 38/200 for the Enfield/Webly/Victory models in common use in WWII.  They considered it as substantially equivalent to a .455.  I say somewhat of a stretch;- but there you are.

Did I digress   I do so, go on

[w44wcf]

Roland,
I have shot my Marlin Cowboy .357, 44-40 and 45 Colt rifles out to 300 meters and I will say that they all performed well with b.p. cartridges loaded with the vintage 2 lube grooved bullets and Swiss b.p. Accuracy was very good.

With black powders other than Swiss, I experienced fouling issues and degrading accuracy after a dozen rounds or so with the vintage bullets.  I have found that the "big lube" 44-40 & 45 Colt bullets work great out to 100 yards or so but mostly because of the large meplat (nose diameter) they are somewhat lacking in accuracy as compared to the vintage bullets at extended distances.

It would seem that the .38/.357 "Big Lube" bullet would fly accurately at longer ranges due to its more streamlined shape. I have no experience with that bullet but  the shape would indicate that long range accuracy is obtainable.

In the 44-40 using Goex and similar powders, I have found that the Accurate Molds 43-215C bullet which has the same shape as the vintage 427098 bullet but with the additional lube capacity to run trouble free for many rounds maintains good accuracy at 300 meters.



http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-215C-D.png

300 meter target is 9" high x 22" long


w44wcf







 

[Chev. William]

I would like to add a little background to the discussion on bullets and cartridges, even though I have not shot most calibers I do read and find comments by authors contemporary to the Founding period of cartridge rifle target and hunting shooting.

BP Metallic Cartridges became available to some extent during the American Civil War,or War of Northern Aggression as some call it, and therefore there was some side by side "practical" testing of the ones available at the time.  They were less prone to miss-loading in the heat of battle than loose components or paper cartridge loads of the era, but not immune to problems altogether.

Post War things continued to evolve toward more reliable Metallic cartridge and firearm designs because of the ease of caring and using them compared to loose components.  In the 1870s Two things began to affect Developments in a more controlled form. The National Rifle Association was Founded in the USA, and Several Manufacturers developed cartridge repeating rifles that were reliable enough for use in the 'Wild West' of the era.

Of course, the Winchester 1873 and its signature cartridge,the 44-40WCF sold large quantities of fire arms and cartridges, their demands also helped along with the Colt SAA design that also fired the same caliber cartridge, this allowing one cartridge to serve both of a "frontiersman's" primary firearm needs.  Other similar cartridges were sold and used also but the owner had to carefully order the arms to get matching caliber weapons in them if desired.  Cartridges such as the 45 Colt, 38-40, 32-20, 32-40, etc. came out for dual use in pistol and rifle and attained some success.  The .22 Rim fire series started in this same period and found use as a "pot Meat" cartridge for small game.  Other RF cartridges were tried and some found more useful than others, although the inability to reload them made remote area use a problem.  The .25 Stevens RF and the .32 Long RF are two that come to mind that found good use and some recommendations in contemporary literature.

Target shooting separated form strictly Hunting type shooting about this time frame. as Hunting seems to be about relatively short ranges, in the Eastern USA, from 50 to about 150 yards, and in the Western USA, around 100 to 300 yards and using any available rest or position to attain the necessary stability for a successful Hunt.   Target shooting on the other hand, quickly focused upon Off Hand shooting at 200 yards and longer, with formal target shooting at ranges up to 1000 yards using regulated targets and shooting positions such as kneeling, siting, prone, or reclining, or Bench Rest with specific firearm characteristics and limitations, under rules of competitions.
In this era the .22 Rim fires were found to be lesser choices at over 200 yards, having too much wind sensitivity compared to larger calibers.  The .25 Stevens RF, released in 1890, was noted as good for Off Hand target shooting at 200 yards but somewhat sensitive to wind still. later the .25 Stevens Short, introduces as an economy, was found wanting in power and range, and seemed to be less favored than even the .32 Long and short were as other than use as a pistol loading.

Into the 1900s the separation of uses and designs continued, with hunting evolving into area and game specific capabilities and Target arms a separate group of more specialized types, the 1000 yard muzzle loader or cartridge 'iron' sighted ones typically fired form the reclining position and having barrels long enough to reach past the shooters feet and with the rear sight mounted upon the butt for the longest sighting base.  the best shots could get Very Good Results.  this gave us our American Riflemen of the First World War, and continued to provide them into the Second world War, men who had learned from their youth to handle firearms and to make economical use of 'scarce' ammunition in hard economic times.

World War 2 caused many cartridge calibers to become obsolete as the War Effort converted production to War needs and the production of 'obsolete' calibers were, to the most part, not resumed upon the closing of hostilities and return to Peacetime production.
We seem to have come to trying to make a limited range of firearm designs do many tasks, with varying levels of success.

So much for the background.  Go and enjoy the Hobby with this bit of 'trivia' in mind.

[FriscoCounty]

Cartridges such as the 45 Colt, 38-40, 32-20, 32-40, etc. came out for dual use in pistol and rifle and attained some success. 

Small nit. The .45 Colt was never a dual use cartridge in the 'Real' west. 

[Yakima Red]

I have 44-40 brass that I have reloaded for 20 years. Case annealing is the secret

[Cliff Fendley]

45 Colt was a revolver cartridge. Wasn't originally chambered in rifles.

[Grizzle Bear]

To answer your original question:

I have been reloading the .44-40 with real black powder on a Dillon 650 for many years.  No problems at all, even using the
Dillon powder measure with BP.  (I do have two Dillon powder measures, one is labeled "BP Only" and the other is smokeless
only)  As someone else noted, I lose more brass at the range than gets damaged by reloading. 

Careful adjustment of the dies is necessary, but once they are set, they're good.  A Lee Factory Crimp Die is a must!  I have
used two bullets, used to shoot a hollow base bullet (220g) to get enough lube.  They worked great, and left a smoke trail to the target, which always amused spectators!  But then the Big Lube Bullets arrived, and I have been shooting them ever since.  I use a lube of half beeswax and half Crisco melted together.  All bullets were sized .429 in a Lyman sizer.   

My usual load is 28g of GOEX FFg, which is just enough to get some compression of the powder.  I once obtained some Swiss BP, and loaded a batch with my usual settings.  Big Mistake!  The volume setting that gave me the 28g of GOEX dropped 32g by weight of the Swiss.  I was accused of shooting Magnum loads at our next shoot!  While these rounds worked really well, and were accurate, especially out of a rifle, they were uncomfortably hot out of a pistol.  So I have gone back to GOEx FFg, and set the Swiss aside for use in my muzzleloaders. 

I have always used standard Winchester primers for the .44-40, tried Magnum primers once and could not perceive any difference.  In the .45-70 with BP, Magnum primers do indeed make a difference.

Although I have kinda retired from CAS, in my heyday I was shooting enough that the Dillon 650 was a real blessing.  I could load
enough for a match in a hour or so.  The biggest hindrance was getting bullets cast and sized.  The Big Lube molds that throw six
bullets at a time were a big help for that.

Think that's all the high points, if you have any more questions, fire away.

GB

[Grizzle Bear]

Ooops....Senior Moment

I size all my bullets to .428 diameter.  .429 is too big, and you will have chambering problems.

[Navy Six]

Most of the reported problems concerning reloading the 44/40 can be traced to a few issues. As stated elsewhere in these posts, Starline brass is the thickest but still expands well enough to seal a chamber in either a rifle or pistol. The other main difference is, for some reason, the length of the brass case does vary quite a bit from one manufacturer to the next. That can cause issues when you are using a roll crimp with bullets that feature a deep crimp groove, as you have adjusted your bullet seating depth with one case and if loading mixed manuf. brass the next case may be too long. Also, since the brass is so thin in the neck area ( doesn't matter the brand), if you don't seat the bullet perfectly straight you may notice a bulge in the neck near the base of the bullet as in was seated a little crooked.
You can eliminate these variables by:
1) Since you are wisely loading Black Powder in this case, use a bullet like Lyman's #427098. It has no crimping groove (not needed with a case full of Black) and is intended to be crimped over the ogive. This makes the differences in case lengths no issue any longer.
2) Seat the bullet using a little care to insure its going into the case straight. I started using Redding's Competition Seating Die (44/40 pn#55188) which is spring loaded and automatically centers the bullet in the case. Seat the bullet in a separate step without crimping.
3) Use Lee's Factory Crimp Die (44/40 pn#90854). It does not heavily roll crimp as a collet "gently but firmly squeezes the end of the case", according to Lee's literature.
Using these methods, I have not lost a 44/40 case in the loading process in over ten years. All the 44/40 brass I have (mixed manuf.) is at least fifteen years old and have been shot at least ten times. Is all this too much trouble? By nature, any reloading should be done carefully and with you full attention. Forgot to mention I do all this on a Dillon 550B. Not exactly the same as your 650 but you get the point.  Hope this is of some help,  Navy Six

[Chev. William]

One more point:
"Slug" your Barrel(S) to determine the Bore and Groove diameters, then record them for future reference.
Once you know the Groove (larger)diameter of the Barrel(s) you can select a Cast Bullet about .001" OR .002" larger than the Groove diameter so it will properly fill the barrel upon firing.

I have two original 1873 Winchesters that Slugged .434" Groove diameter and the Commercial loaded typical .427" bullets do not shoot  well from them.  I also own an Iver Johnson 'Cattleman' Single Action revolver that has a barrel that does like the commercial .427" bullets.

Two different sets of loading dies to match the two sizes of Bullets; so I try to load only for Rifle or for Revolver at any one time.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[sail32]

About powder for the .44-40.
Elmer Keith in his 1936 book "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads", he mentions that he got better accuracy using FFg powder rather than FFFg powder.
The results in Mike Venturino's, "Shooting Sixguns of the Old West", the FFg is the more accurate powder in the large calibers most of the time.