** Photos Added ** Colonel Robert Gould Shaw of MA and Spencer Ownership?

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

Received the following very interesting Email and thought I would share the contents with all of you for your comments and opinions.

Hello Two Flints,

The purpose of writing is to see if you can shed any light on a Spencer Carbine SN 22149. It belongs to a friend of mine who does not do computers. He states that his grandfather was the caretaker for Robert Gould Shaw, II who lived in New London, NH and gave the carbine to his grandfather saying "it belonged to the Col." The SN is 22149.

Robert Gould Shaw was the Colonel of the 54th MA Infantry. There is a monument in Boston dedicated to the famous 54th colored Regiment.

Additional info:

Shaw was born 10 Oct. 1837 the only son of Francis Gould and Sarah Sturgis Shaw. Shaw had 4 sisters. Robert Gould Shaw II is a cousin of Col. Shaw. There is a Colin Gould Shaw that is a great-great grandson of Robert Shaw II.

The carbine might also have been a gift to the Col. from the Spencer Arms Co. The Shaw's lived in Boston and were a very wealthy family. As an infantry officer Shaw most likely would not have carried a rife or carbine. Officers normally carried a pistol. All the men of the 54th carried rifles and he would not have wanted to carry something better than what they did.
It is also possible he never saw the carbine, especially if he was away when it was made a gift............if in fact it was a gift, which is mostly likely the case.

Any info you can provide on this would be appreciated.

I replied to this Email with the following comments:

Thank you for your Email.  Please send me photos of the Spencer Carbine serial # 22419, especially of the receiver, top bottom and sides, and with the action open to expose the breechblock, if still in its original condition.
 
Regarding your Spencer Carbine Serial #22149: I don't find any serial #s even close to #22149 among those serial #s listed in my SRS Reference books. I do own a Spencer Rifle that may have been issued to the 37th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry. The reason I mention this is because Massachusetts purchased rifles for use by their very own Civil War units and the serial #s for these rifles were never listed in the SRS books. Same thing could have happened with Spencer Carbines - perhaps a large number of Spencer Carbines were purchased either directly from the Spencer Manufacturing Company or the Federal Government and issued to Massachusetts units . . . Serial #22149 could have been a special "gift" purchase by the then Governor John Albion Andrew who served as the 25 Governor of Massachusetts from 1861 and 1866. He was responsible for and authorized the formation of two regiments of black infantry, the 54th and 55th Massachusetts, composed of blacks from Massachusetts and several other states.

Just maybe, Governor Andrew "gifted" the Shaw family with the Spencer Carbine, as thanks for his acceptance of his appointment to lead the 54th into battle.

Two Flints, Founder & Moderator
Spencer Shooting Society
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?board=35.0

[Arizona Trooper]

Very interesting! It was common for patent arms companies to give their products to officers that they considered influential. Certainly Christopher Spencer would have known of Shaw, both being from Boston, and Shaw's family being quite influential. I'm very curious if this carbine has inspector's markings, or assembly numbers. If it has assembly numbers, it would have been made from rejected parts, which would indicate that it came straight from Spencer. Depending on how it's inspected, it may have been delivered on a federal or state contract. This one is definitely worth more research!

[Two Flints]

Another Email with Gould update:

Attached are photos of the Spencer.   (Photos aooear below posted by Two Flints)  The owner Rick Goodwin brought it to my house today so that I could take photos for your assessment.  He said that you could contact him directly at (phone # deleted by Two Flints) for any additional questions.  He also gave me the following additional info:  Robert Gould Shaw III committed suicide around 1970 and Robert Gould Shaw II divorced around 1903.  A few days after his divorce he remarried and moved to NH.  He died around 1930.  

Goodwin's mother was born in 1932 & both her parents were working at the Shaw estate in Newton at the time.  I don't know if it was clear in the extra info I sent, but Goodwin's mother was born on the Shaw estate.  Both her mother and father lived on the estate.

Goodwin's' grandmother came down from Prince Edward Island to be a nanny for the Shaw's (II).  His grandfather was a caretaker on the estate and this is how they met and married.

The SN 22149 is located behind the hammer.

There are no inspectors marking that we can find.  Where would they be located?

There is imprinted on the barrel Spencer Repeating Rifle Co. Boston, MA - Pat'd March 6, 1860.  The only piece on the gun that is not original is a piece of metal that appears to act as a spring for the rear elevator sight....this part does not show very well in photo.  This part was replaced by a gunsmith.













Dick

[Ibgreen]

My Col. Blackburn engraved spencer carries no government inspection marks as well.  And the serial number is missing from the Springfield books (the number before and after are listed).  May I ask if the front sight on this spencer has a brass blade like mine did?

[cavcpt]

Ibegreen,

I do not recall the front sight being brass. My friend owns the weapon and I have only seen it the one time that I took the photos.
One additional piece of info that I forgot to mention is that the Shaw estate in Newton, MA is now the home of Mt Ida College.

Dick