Leather separation? Don't know what it is called. Photos added 12/4/13

[Tallbald]

Not as frequent a poster as in the past, I still read here to gain more knowledge as I work to grow my skills. And I always so greatly appreciate the help I receive.
I have to be thrifty with my leather for financial reasons, so I make my cardboard patterns and trace them as close to the edge of a skin as I can. Without knowing it until I had cut and mostly stitched a full flap holster for one of my Ruger Old Army's, I had included a section toward the edge of the skin that seems to have had separation of the outer skin layer from the inner flesh side of the leather. Not wanting to waste the material, and also because it is in the un-stressed rearward side of the  muzzle end of the holster bucket, I went ahead and finished the holster. Vinegaroon soaking further showed the extent of the separation, with the finished side at the affected area wrinkling significantly to the touch. My holster still turned out OK for me, but I hate that I didn't see the problem before putting so much time into the holster. I'm not able to post a photo right now but hope my description of the issue is good enough to help someone provide me with information.

 What happened to the skin during tanning that made this area of separation (if that's what/when it) occur?

  The problem wasn't really obvious when I was laying out for tracing around my pattern, so is there a way I can identify the     trouble spots before they get included in future projects?

 The leather I use is imported from Mexico, is bought from a supplier to a tool belt manufacturer, and though not really expensive
  it has good color and smooth texture, and is vegetable tanned. It's also available a short drive from my home. Is this separation just  from using lower cost skins?

Thanks as always. Don
 

[Tallbald]

The skins I buy are shoulders. And I cannot afford "Hermann Oak" so I buy what I can budget for. I don't suppose my ancestors had a lot of choice either, yet created some beautiful things working around problem areas. I'll make do. Never mind, but thanks any way. Don

[Massive]

I don't know what your objectives are in leathermaking, but it is hard to save money by buying bad material.  That said, with natural materials a lot of it comes down to you.  Even if you buy name brand, you are still the filter the material goes through, as you select pieces.  This time you had an experience that allows you to look more carefully when you are laying out around edges.  You can trim a sample and check it for weaknesses along the trim line.  And you can check the back for material that isn't attached, and so forth.

Most of the really good leather is imported.  The best leather comes form Mexico, Canada, and the UK, and probably many other places are capable of producing it.  But the best shoulders for bootmaking come from those places.  The difference is in the cows we raise today, so you want a non-corn diet, no pen finishing, which is hard to find, and you want real tanning processes.  Obviously you  can get junk from outside the country also. 

I have often wondered how good the leather would have been that Cowboys had access to.  On the one hand the raw material was there, and they lived in a time of real tanning, and free range cattle.  On the other hand, most of the tanning might have taken place in the east, and who knows how much money they had.  It is always hard to generalize how good crafts were from surviving examples, since those may be the only examples worth preserving.

[Tallbald]

Now that it's daylight, I have photographed the problem area. When tracing the pattern on the skin, the separation wasn't really evident to my novice eyes, and I hope to not repeat my mistake. No it's not "Hermann Oak" leather. Maybe more like "Bob's Oak" or "Floyd's Oak", but it's the leather I am able to afford. The area I'm questioning is seen in the photo of the back of my holster. Thanks. Don
http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j420/tallbald/PC041691.jpg

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j420/tallbald/PC041692.jpg

[Camano Ridge]

Tallbald, are the wrinkled areas the area that you are calling seperation. Did you do this holster as a lined holster two pieces of leather glued together fuzzy side to fuzzy side?

[Tallbald]

Camano the holster is unlined. The wrinkles are actually just what feels like the outer smooth layer separated from the lower one. As a side note, I would enjoy the challenge of making a lined holster, but 2 ounce leather has to be bought through the mail ( and I know better than to use recycled garment leather due to the corrosive chemicals used in tanning) and is too pricey for me. Don

[Trailrider]

Tallbald,
Even the best quality leather can have hidden blemishes, separations, etc., such as you ran into, or scars that don't show up until the leather is dyed or wet formed. The best recommendation is to buy the best quality leather you can afford. Shoulders are fine for limited quantities of production. You need to keep below the spine, however, and not get too close to the belly.  If you buy sides, again, stay close to the top of the hide, and don't get too close to the belly. Casing (wetting) the leather with a damp cloth or sponge and allowing it to dry before laying out the pattern may disclose surface defects. But you may not detect delamination until the leather is actually cut. Probably not what you want to hear, but it tends to be the way it is. If I get 50 percent utilization from a side of leather, I'm doing well.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hey,

If I had a holster that looked that good, I would just use it and, as the Pirate King once said, 'Chance the consequences' ... (but I think I would make another holster to replace the one just in case it should let go ...)

TTFN,

[Cliff Fendley]

I've been buying 9-10oz backs from Thoroughbred for the last couple years so most of the bad belly leather is already cut off. I was winding up with so much belly leather I couldn't use it all on projects that didn't matter but I'm such a tight wad I won't throw it away until I'm neck deep in the stuff. Even with the backs you have to be careful toward the bottom of the hide.

Nice looking holster, looks like your problem is mostly if not all on the back. Not something I would sell but I certainly wouldn't have a problem using it myself for as long as it held up.

[Tallbald]

Trailrider that's exactly the type of information I was hoping to be given. With that information in mind I can better plan my cutting. I'm only having to pay around $3.50 a square foot for 9 ounce vegetable tanned leather, can pick from pallets full of skins, and accept the small surface imperfections. I actually rather enjoy the pattern the skins have closer to the spine and at least so far haven't run into this trouble with those areas. But now I can be more selective in choosing hides.
WaddWatsonEllis I appreciate the compliments. My carving is really primitive, but due to arthritis in my limbs and hands  I have difficulty controlling tools precisely. I satisfy myself though with the belief that my "artwork" might compare favorably to someone at my level of skill ...if they were on the frontier scratching at hides by fire light with a sharp stick, nail and a rusty pocketknife (grin).
 Thanks again all. Don

[Don Nix]

It looks to me like you probably got way down on the belly with your pattern. On soft tanned hides you'll often see this in the thinner areas. the belly  is soft and some times you can literally pull the flesh apart with you fingers.Mexican hides are famous for this.Some of those piss tanned hides are really soft in the thinner areas.
I once drove to Ft Worth to pick up ten sides of Mexican Vegetable tanned  13-15oz leather. We loaded them into the back of the car and started home in the 100 degree weather. After about an hour the car began to smell like a urinal. Had drive the rest of the way home with the windows down. I didnt think I would ever get rid of that cheap leather.