1860 Spencer Carbine serial number

[metcatant]

Hello, just joined up and have a question about ( 2 ) 1860 Spencer Carbines. I would like any information about these carbines history that you could provide : serial #8573 and #8574.

Thanks in advance
Bob

[Arizona Trooper]

Those numbers should be rifles if they are M1860s. In fact they are very close to my rifle. Is there a weakly struck number in front of the 8XXX, or are they M-1865s? 1860 carbines didn't come out until the 10K range. 

[Two Flints]

Arizona Trooper,

This is the link to the Spencer mentioned above.  Your thoughts on the serial #?  My computer time is very limited since surgery

Two Flints

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/identified-items/firearms/8488

[Arizona Trooper]

That is a very odd carbine. The receiver is from a rifle, with the carbine sling bar tacked on. There appears to be no inletting into the receiver metal for the bar. Such a carbine would have never been accepted by a government inspector with the sling bar added the way it is. If it was made as a carbine on a leftover rifle receiver after October of 1863, when carbines were first delivered, the armory would have added the sling bar inletting to make it conform to the pattern. If it is a prototype, it would have probably been made with a Sharps sling bar, not Spencer bar with the solid plate.

Number 8574 is reported in Springfield Research Service as a rifle in Company G of the 8th Ind. Vol. Cav.

While I don't doubt 8573 came from the family of a Wilders member, the inconsistencies are too great to make it likely that he carried it in the war.

Wilder's Lightning Brigade was armed with rifles, not carbines.
The serial number is way outside the Widers range.
The number is way outside the carbine range.
The sling bar is not correctly installed.
Officers were not issued firearms, and the owner is reported as an officer on returning from the hospital.
The owner didn't have use of his right arm. It is very difficult to operate a Spencer one handed. You tend to stab you fingers on the trigger when closing the lever (and that HURTS!).
Loading the magazine one handed is a major pain.

I suspect it is a rifle that was cut off commercially after the war and made into a carbine, then somehow found its way to a Wilders Brigade Veteran, where it acquired the story of being used by him in the war.

The Horse Soldier is a very reputable organization, and I'm sure they are reporting what they were told by the family. I'm just not sure that the family had it right. Just today I saw a Winchester rifle that was carried by a member of the Rough Riders in Cuba, except that it was made after 1898. Family stories have a way of changing over the years.

I think The Horse Soldier is set up at the Charleston show this weekend (I saw a couple guys wearing their hats today.) I'll look around tomorrow and see if that carbine is on a table here.

Sorry for the bad news, but this one makes me very suspicious.

[metcatant]

Thanks Two Flints and Arizona Trooper. I'm much informed now.

Arizona Trooper:

What is Wilders serial number range?

thanks again!

[Herbert]

I agree with Arizona Trooper,the vice markes on the barrel could also be a warning.There is a slight posibility it could be a expermental carbine,but it would have to be striped(remove the carbine bar to check for inleting in the frame, and the forstock to check the serial number)the inleting for the butt stock looks right,but as mentioned there iseems to be no inleting in the frame for the carbine bar.Like AT I can not swallow the story about a officer owning this and with out a thorogh examination of the carbine I would be very suspious of calling it a expermental carbine,though somone has gorne to a lot of trouble to make it seem to be one

[Two Flints]

Arizona Trooper and Herbert,

Thank you so much for your help on this post by Metcatant.  Your detailed response and information is very much appreciated and thanks again for helping out. 

Two Flints

[Arizona Trooper]

Glad to help out! Thank you Herbert for chiming in. I checked at the show today, and no Horse Soldier. There were some interesting Spencers though, including a Navy Rifle in the 800 SN range and a nice conversion of a carbine into a plains rifle. The neatest thing to me was a 1st DC Cav Henry.

My Wilder's book is in storage, but I have to go over there this evening and will pull it out. It has the SN range for Wilders rifles.

[metcatant]

Thanks for looking into the Wilder serial range Arizona Trooper!

I would really like to get my hands on a "true" Wilder Spencer .

[Arizona Trooper]

Just got back from the storage unit. Baumgartner, in "Blue Lightning" reports numbers from Co. G of the 72nd Indiana from the high 4000s to the low 6000s in May of 1863. I know of two Co. A 123rd Ind. rifles, both in the high 5000s. Also, officers in the 72nd are listed as carrying Colt's and Whitney's Navy pistols.

Keep in mind that a lot of other western Mounted Infantry and Cavalry units were getting Spencers at the same time. Rifles in this number range appear in the 9th and 10th Mich. Vol Cav., 8th Ind., and 19th NY in the Springfield Research Service books. Undoubtedly, others were getting them too. Just because a rifle is in the "Wilders Range" doesn't mean it was in the Brigade.

Good luck on your search! They are out there.

[metcatant]

thanks Arizona Trooper....the info is of great help.

I sent you a PM

[Arizona Trooper]

PM replied! Good luck on your find!

[metcatant]

Arizona Trooper...thanks for ALL the time and help!!

[Sam Small]

Sorry for all the confusion regarding this carbine. After checking the serial number under the forestock it is 18573. The "1" on the area behind the receiver was worn away. I am one of the owners of The Horse Soldier and felt compelled to correct our error.