My idea of a CAS/SASS rig.

[Red Cent]

We are building holsters here so I hope this is not moved.

I wear two strongside holsters. No crossdraw. These are my ideas of a great rig and not a slight on any other rig or person.

When I got into SASS in about 2000, I bought a rather old fashioned rig keeping in step with the other competitors. After about a year I began to notice that my holsters were not ergonomic. They both had a 12 degree barrel foward cant. However when almost puts on a 12 degree cant, because of the way we are built they become a straight hang.  To me a straight hang is more difficult to draw from rather than a holster built for fast draw. When you draw from a "surrender" position, you should be able to simply drop the hand on the gun, pull up and back just a tad and clear leather. If you have to do something"abnormal" with your shoulder and/or your wrist you have not achieved efficiency. Try it sometime. Hold your hands at shoulder level as in a surrender position. Pivot the arm at the shoulder somewhat maintaing the starting position of your arm and wrist. My hand will hit the grip naturally. If you have to hunch the shoulder or break the wrist, it ain't ergonomic.
'Course we all know if we practiced enough, any holster would probably work.
The strong hand holster is the easiest to draw from since you have to simply grab the grip. The weak hand is another thing. Here is where I advocate access to the front of the trigger guard. With my left hand (weak hand), I place the little finger on the front of the grip. My middle finger contacts the front of the trigger guard and the thumb is on the top strap touching the hammer. As the gun approaches the right hand, you pass the gun this way allowing the right hand to access the grip with no obstruction. As the right hand contacts the gun, the left hand cocks the gun and the sequence ends with firing the gun. Reverse the process with the help of a biggggg hole.
A reverse built holster or rather one that is sewn up the front and the "wrap" is under the trigger guard makes for a very satisfactory design. The front of the trigger guard is resting on the thickness of the holster rather than the old fashion curve that continued the lines of the trigger guard.
An important  aspect of cowboy action shooting is you have to re-holster (maybe twice) during a stage. Most of other shooting disciplines don't do this. Because of this I like a bigggg hole to hit when I reholster. This you can see elsewhere here on this site. The profile picture sems to swallow the handgun but the outside lip is rolled out making for a hole that anyone could hit quick and on the run. And it provides little retention but the handgun has to work at it to jump out of my holster. SASS holsters need to be kinda stiff. As you know, some makers use metal or kydex to keep the holster open. Rod Kibler uses rawhide in strategic areas on the outside of the holster and it works very well.
The height of the holster on the belt is a personal thing but I prefer the top of the grip to be under the top of the belt. There a number of really fast shooters who need someone to make them a rig with a top of the belt drop of about 6 inches. It would keep them from wearing the rig at a dangerously low position.
None of my rigs have the large back flap. When I draw either gun, there is no leather anywhere to get in the way. Example: when you draw with the stronghand the middle finger is extended a little more than the others simply because the way the hand works. That middle finger should never touch leather other than just brushing the holster under the trigger guard.

Any preferences or thoughts out there.

[Red Cent]

Rod Kibler rig.

[Bugscuffle]

When I made my rig, the first one that I ever made. I decided to put in a 12 degree forward cant on my strong side gun ( barrel to the rear ) 12 degrees turned out to be too much. The draw is O.K. but I neeed to tie down the holster to my leg and the forward cant makes that dificult.. (it's a buscadero style) My next rig I'll either reduce the cant to well under 10 degrees and/or really stiffen the rig up so that the holster doesn't tend to rise up during the draw. The weak hand gun is a 3 1/2" birdshead Uberti that I am very happy with both the holster and the gun. One choice that I did make and I'm really glad of is that the holsters cover the triggers enough that I cannot put my finger into the trigger guard while the gun is in the holster. I have tried and tried to teach myself to keep my finger away from the trigger until the gun is pointed at the target, but with no luck on that at all. Covering the trigger solved the problem. I don't have to worry about shooting my toes off now. I also did not put bullet loops on the rig. They are not needed in any of the local shoots that we have here in San Antonio. At least none that I have been to. I am now trying to train myself to NOT cock the gun while drawing it, and to cock it with the weak hand thumb. I may loose 1/10th of a second, but I'll be safer.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

The best CAS rig I've made for myself was made from doubled 9-10oz leather with no stiffener. The glue made them very rigid, to the point that they were difficult to wet mold. Once fitted, though, they're great. The guns come out with no resistance and drop in easily. The photo doesn't show the wide opening, but they're hard to miss, especially since they are in exactly the right spot for my hand when I drop it to my side. The double belts were a necessity because a single belt drops down to my ankles if I breathe in (no butt for it to hang on.) There is no drop on the holsters because the double crossed rig puts them at the right height for my long arms. Additional drop would necessitate an uncomfortable reach. They do need to be tied down to stay locked on my hip but that's easy since I do have a hip for that.    There's no cant built in them because of where they hang. It's easy for me to pull them up and out quickly from a straight drop. To re-holster, I just point down my leg and let go with a slight shove. I'm probably not your speed but I'm fast enough to have decent times.

On a side note, my holsters can be more historically correct in appearance because of the crossed belts and where they ride. To some, that doesn't matter but it works for me.

[Red Cent]

Double 9-10 ounce. I would imagine they would be stiff. IMO, a SASS holster must be stiff or little retention. The holster should not rise with the draw. 'Couse the double belt rig would be an exception.



"I have tried and tried to teach myself to keep my finger away from the trigger until the gun is pointed at the target, but with no luck on that at all."

Bugs, that means you have not practiced enough. It takes weeks of practice before you will change a habit learned into another habit. Muscle memory. Subconscious. The practice must be consistent and not revert to doing the old way.

Shooting other disciplines, I have always wore a holster appendix style. And this carried over to SASS. Again the ergonomics. Ain't very historical. But it makes the grips stick out a little from the body and fits my contours. Move either of my holsters more than an inch and I'll miss the hole.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

LOL, the doubled 9-10oz is stiff. I think they would survive being driven over by RV.

The biggest habit I had to break when I started CAS was to cock the hammer as the pistol came out of the holster. Fortunately, it was fairly easy to change by cocking with the off-hand thumb. Those habits can really be a bugaboo. The same thing works in your favor, though. When you have a good habit, you do that automatically, too. I've found a good way to change a habit is to do it right slowly, over and over. As that gets automatic, go a little faster but keep at a speed where you can do it right. Speed comes in its own time.

Red, I agree that ergonomics is a big factor. You get to move naturally rather than have to learn to quickly do something awkward. Also, that last little difference between being good and being great is found in using natural movements. It's a matter of knowing how your body works best and putting that to use.

[Bugscuffle]

Red Cent - "Bugs, that means you have not practiced enough. It takes weeks of practice before you will change a habit learned into another habit. Muscle memory. Subconscious. The practice must be consistent and not revert to doing the old way."

Five years of practice didn't prevent me from occasionally putting my finger in the trigger guard while drawing, but cvovering the trigger guard did the trick. I guess that I'm just a slow learner. I'm in the same boat that you are as far as the ergonomics go. I too am a creature of habit, so I have adapted my SASS rig to what I was used to for neqarly 50 years, a little too much in the forward cant department, but that isn't insurmountable. My next rig will be an improvement, at least i hope it will. My craftsmanship is improving and that is a big inspiration to me. I am just wondering how many permutations that it will take to get the whole thing together. With luck, it will take many because I really have fun building these gun rigs.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Bugs, every time you make one, there are little improvements you'll want for the next time. I seldom make anything that I don't improve on when I do another one. I don't think there's such a thing as a perfect project. At least in one's own eyes. I'm looking forward to your next rig.

[1961MJS]

LOL, the doubled 9-10oz is stiff. I think they would survive being driven over by RV.

The biggest habit I had to break when I started CAS was to cock the hammer as the pistol came out of the holster. Fortunately, it was fairly easy to change by cocking with the off-hand thumb. Those habits can really be a bugaboo. The same thing works in your favor, though. When you have a good habit, you do that automatically, too. ...

Hi

I have a question on drawing.  I just received my rig from David Carrico today at about 11 AM so I don't have any bad habits to break (yet).  I've watched a few You Tube videos on the sport and one in particular had you cock the hammer with the web between your thumb and forefinger on the way back.  PERSONALLY I thought it unsafe, but fast.  Is doing that a violation of the rules in SASS?  I hadn't seen it in the rules, but it's been a while since I looked.  I currently have only one six shooter, after I decide I like the SAA clone, I'll either get another one or look at another style.

Thanks

Mike

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Very cool. David makes good leather. You'll get lots of service out of that.

Unless the rules have changed, you are not allowed to cock the pistol until it's pointed down range. I believe that is considered to be a 45° angle as the pistol comes up. If you cock the pistol while it's in the holster, it isn't pointed downrange.

Here's how I do it. I grab the pistol with my strong hand and pull it out of the holster with my forefinger straight along the side of the frame. As it comes up, I place my off hand 4 fingers around the strong hand fingers on the grip. As the pistol nears level, it's moving forward toward the target. That's when my forefinger goes into the trigger guard onto the trigger. The last motion is to cock the hammer with the off hand thumb. When the sights line up with the target, I pull the trigger and cock again on the way to the next target.

I'm sure there are a lot of ways to correctly do it but that's what works for me. Hope this helps.

[1961MJS]

Very cool. David makes good leather. You'll get lots of service out of that.

Unless the rules have changed, you are not allowed to cock the pistol until it's pointed down range. I believe that is considered to be a 45° angle as the pistol comes up. If you cock the pistol while it's in the holster, it isn't pointed downrange.
...

Thanks, that's a big help.  I didn't like the whole idea anyway.

Mike

[Red Cent]

What you are describing is a way to" fast draw". Next time you watch Silverado, pay close to attention to Scott Glen practicing in the desert. The flesh at the web contacts the hammer, completes cocking the hammer and continue to the firing grip. As anything competitive, takes a lot of practice.
And illegal in SASS.
A two handed shooter should not worry about the trigger finger since he/she should grip the gun as if in the final firing postion and it comes to the line of sight the weak hand takes a grip and cocks the hammer. Somewhere between about 45 degrees to horiizontal the trigger finger is placed.
Having shot IPSC for a number of years, the draw has carried over to cowboy. I can be faster from a surrender position rather than hands at sides. At surrender, the strong hand grabs the grip. You should never have to adjust this position in the shot string. I pull out the gun and as the gun clears leather I begin to bring it up to face level where the weak hand meets the gun, makes the grip, and start to push the gun towrds the target. As soon as the weak hand meets, the weak hand thumb will start to cock the hammer. You pick up the front sight as you push( oresent) the gun towards the target. I fire just before fully extended.
Here is an IPSC draw. Watch the hands closely.

[Red Cent]

Do you have two strong side holsters or crossdraw?

[1961MJS]

Do you have two strong side holsters or crossdraw?

Hi Red

If that was directed at me, I only have one strong side holster for my one 7.5 inch SAA.  I haven't settled on a pistol yet, but I'm (obviously) leaning towards the SAA's.  When I get to where I can shoot the SAA decently and get a grip decided on, I'll get a 5.5 or 4.75 inch barrelled one. 

I've tried the holster both cross draw and strong side and it works slightly better as a cross draw, but I admit that I haven't worked with it that much.  I've been travelling.

Mike

[Red Cent]

As you probably are aware, the 7 1/2" is too long. At least for the fastest times. I vote for the 4 3/4 (Colt) 4 5/8 (Ruger).

If you go to a crossdraw, you will want to practice this until it is second nature. Idaho John (aka John Shaw top IPSC shooter some years ago) started in cowboy. He does this: Almost every scenario you will draw the crossdraw pistol first. After the fifth shot you will grab the pistol over the top with you thumb on the left side and fingers on the right. Immediately turn the gun barrel down and reholster in the crossdraw. Totally legal. At the same time you grab the gun with your weak hand the strong hand is drawing the other pistol. No wasted motion.
World champion. In this stage the second pistol is not second.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1BwUJ4--Qw&list=PLBB32C17C0C5250BA

This a standard test stage that everybody tries to see where they stand.

[1961MJS]

As you probably are aware, the 7 1/2" is too long. At least for the fastest times. I vote for the 4 3/4 (Colt) 4 5/8 (Ruger).

If you go to a crossdraw, you will want to practice this until it is second nature. Idaho John (aka John Shaw top IPSC shooter some years ago) started in cowboy. He does this: Almost every scenario you will draw the crossdraw pistol first. After the fifth shot you will grab the pistol over the top with you thumb on the left side and fingers on the right. Immediately turn the gun barrel down and reholster in the crossdraw. Totally legal. At the same time you grab the gun with your weak hand the strong hand is drawing the other pistol. No wasted motion.
World champion. In this stage the second pistol is not second.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1BwUJ4--Qw&list=PLBB32C17C0C5250BA

This a standard test stage that everybody tries to see where they stand.

Thanks for the links Red.  I know I'm at a disadvantage with a full sized SAA, but I'm doing this cause I'm shooting history as fast as I can, not just shooting as fast as I can (or something like that).  I'm also a bit handicapped by the lack of guns (not the SAA).  I think I can handle running that way, and I will probably get a 5.5 inch SAA, possibly a 4 incher.  I haven't decided yet.  I also don't have a load worked up for my 1892 lever action (they had then in stock).  I hope to start competing next spring at the latest. 

I like the way Lead Dispenser stood with his left hip forward and shot everything right handed.  It seems to work well and as you stated, no waster motion.

Is the 1897 shotgun considered to be faster than a double barrel?  That surprises me.

Thanks again

[Red Cent]

My slant on things. For speed and quick learning the 97 is fastest. The learning curve on a double is longer. Mind you I speak from a gamers point of view. That said the 97 feels like something is missing inside when you operate it and the double will break open by itself right after you touch the lever.  And there is more. But I am talking getting the extra half second on a stage. So let us look at some speed demons.

This is Deuce Stevens a great young fellow and a heck of a great cowboy shooter. Realize that double didn't come from the box to his hands. Lots of things done for speed.


Lead Dispencer. Again, that 97 has been tuned for speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSMOoqaGAT4&list=PLD8810EAC7167D9EF

This gal is Jasmine Jessie. Taken a few years back. Today she is rated as one of the world's top female shooter in USPSA and IDPA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbCjcEO9z1A&list=PLD8810EAC7167D9EF

Another way to load a 97.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llib9YGX-QE&list=PLD8810EAC7167D9EF&index=3

[Massive]

The evil roy tapes are worth a look.  I got them from Smartflix, but if I had known how good they are, I might have bought them.  He gets beyond the techniques of directly handling guns and stuff, to doing stuff fast.  Where the speed is.  Obviously if you handle the guns in a slow way, you will loose a lot of speed, but you will loose more to boot if you don't know how to pace the process.

[Red Cent]

When I advise shooters, I tell them speed never teaches you anything. Repitition teaches you. If the desire is there, I tell them to wear your guns around the house continually reaching down and get a grip on the gun. Muscle memory. Lay your rfile on the table and pick it up at normal speed and shoulder the gun. Same with the shotgun. Muscle memory.
In a safe place, practice the draw, dryfire, and make the transition to the other gun. Not fast. You do what you practice. Imbed the moves into your subconscious.
Live fire practice, the same thing. Normal speed. Accuracy and speed will come. When you walk to the firing line you want to go on auto-pilot. You can always tell the ones who never practice.

The Evil Roy tapes are excellent. They teach you how to not waste any time. The hands should always be doing something. Transition time will win stages if not the match.