Probable dumb question...

[smith693]

Our research on the Battle of Blanco Canyon (Oct 10, 1871) continues I am sure this is a very elementary question:

I received the ordnance reports for the 4th Cav for all quarters of 1871 (anyone is welcome to them if you'd like me to send) from the National Archives. In it , the header for ammunition reads:



Does this mean that the Spencer and Remington shared the same ammunition?

Is there a difference in firing pin impressions?



Thanks in advance for any help.

[Two Flints]

Background info to this post.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=10937.0

Two Flints

[smith693]

Background info to this post.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=10937.0

Two Flints

Thanks Two Flints, should have added that.

[major]

It's hard to read of the web but maybe they are referring to the manufacturer of the cartridges.  Perhaps Remington made cartridges for the Spencer under contract with the US Army.

[smith693]

It's hard to read of the web but maybe they are referring to the manufacturer of the cartridges.  Perhaps Remington made cartridges for the Spencer under contract with the US Army.

Sorry for the poor copy.

The reports state that Company K had "Experimental" Sharps, Remington and Springfield .50 cal assigned to them.

Under ammo that the the Ordnance report lists- they had .50 Center-Fire Metallic cartridges with Sharps and Springfields listed
It also has a column labeled "Spencer and Remington Cartridges - Rim Primed -Metallic - Cal .50"

Does that mean the Springfields and Sharps shot the same ammo and the Spencer and Remington did too?

[sharps1863]

The Sharps, Remington which would have been a rolling block and the Springfield Trapdoor Rifle would have been in 50-70 caliber. I think if I remember right the Army was doing field trials on the Sharps, Rolling Block and Trapdoor rifles and the Ward-Burton Rifle in 1871. These rifles were issued to Different units and evaluated for performace and reliiabilty.
Try this link it is an overview of the report. It explains alot.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23514306/U-S-Army-Rifle-and-Carbine-Adoption-Between-1865-and-1900

[Trailrider]

Although it is indeed difficult to read the Ordnance record shown, it would appear that the cartridges referred to are for a Lindner carbine, apparently a metallic cartridge conversion of the M1842. I have only a scant reference to the Lindner, and there is no mention of conversion to a rimfire metallic cartridge from paper/percussion.  It would appear, however, that there is a possibility of that being the situation, with the cartridge being either the .56-56 or .56-50. The Ball & Lamson repeater also took the same as the Spencer, and there were others.

As was stated by others, the Trials carbines were primarily chambered for the .50-70 Gov't, including the Trapdoor Springfield M1870 (not to be confused with the M1868 with the breechblock stamped 1868, 1869, or 1870), the Sharps M1869 cartridge conversions of the M1858 and M1863 breechloading, paper or skin cartridge guns, the Remington Rolling Block and the Ward-Burton. These were all central fire cartridges, but the military ammo appears to be rimfire since the internal central fire primers were used.

[smith693]

Thanks for answers guys, it helps.

I assume that it clear that Remington produced Spncer ammunition. Is that correct?

[sharps1863]

Union Metallic Cartridge Company would be the correct term to use. This was Remingtons Cartridge Division. Any Spencer rimfire cases would be marked with a U on the base that were made by Union Metallic. Winchester was marked with an H. There were a lot of different company's that produced Spencer ammo each one had their own markings. But all Commercially loaded ammo for the Spencer Rimfire was discontinued in 1920.

[Trailrider]

The reference in the Ordnance record to "Remington" ammo for Spencer's is confusing. I have not been able to find a reference to Remington's manufacturing ammunition in the 1871 timeframe, at least according to Roy Marcot's book "Spencer". Marcellus Hartley purchased Crittenden & Tibbals and C.D. Leet, and moved their equipment to Bridgeport, CT, reorganizing the company into Union Metallic Cartridge and Cap (later shortened to Union Metallic Cartridge Co.). It was not until 1888 that Hartley bought a "sizeable" interest in E. Remington & Sons from the family, renaming it Remington Arms Co. (Did you know that Winchester also had a sizeable interest in Remington Arms at that time?  Talk about anti-competition!    ) UMC and Remington didn't become Remington-UMC until 1911, when Hartley combined them. Yet the Ordnance record refers to Remington ammo. 'Tiz a puzzlement! Anyone care to illucidate, right here in public? 

[sharps1863]

Maybe the ordinance officer just got creative with his inventory log. 

[ndnchf]

Great information here.  The thesis that sharps1863 referred to was difficult for me to download.  But I found a  .pdf version of it elsewhere that downloads and prints easily.  Just thought I'd share.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA471224

[Arizona Trooper]

Large caliber Remington Split Breech carbines used 56-50 Spencer ammo. These were ordered on a CW contract but were delivered too late for the war. Records seem to indicate that all 15,000 were sold to France in 1871. Some of the early large frame Rolling Blocks also used 56-50. I seem to recall that Ordnance bought some of these for trial issue, but I would need to do more research for details.