A thought about guns made outside the border (large essay)

[RickB]

Hickok, are you serious? Do you believe what you wrote?

For one thing I expect you to post some proof (links or other proof) to backup what you say. Outside of other Harley bashers that is.

So you are trying to compare a bike that is 100% Japanese made (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_are_Honda_motorcycles_made), where the prices paid for the bike go back to Japan to support Japan's economy and pay for Japanese corporations is as American made as a Harley is. A Harley might use some parts made outside of the USA, but less than 20% even by your admission. Harley's are 80% made of American parts. The motor, transmission, frame, Tanks, Fenders, Seats, and much of the bike are made in one of the 3 Harley plants here in America. The price paid for their motorcycles stays in America and helps Americans and our economy.

I suspect that if you look at the majority of American cars and motorcycles you'll see that they all use parts from foreign manufacturers, but the majority of their parts are made right here in America.

You might not believe that you've been tasting the Koolaid but you are in fact drinking it quite a bit. I suspect the flavor is Sour Grapes. Your opinion of HD is based on you trying to justify buying a metric bike and not an American one. Listen, I don't care what you ride. Most don't. But I dislike metric bike riders slamming American made companies just to justify their own purchases. My step brother does the same thing. He rides a Honda Goldwing and feels it necessary to justify that by slamming HD. He's repeated the same Urban legends of HD being "assembled in America" and not anymore American made than his own Honda.

According to USA Today, Honda has ended it's assembly of motorcycles in America. So from 2009 all Honda motorcycles are made in Japan and imported to the USA. So there goes that myth that they are American made. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-02-27-honda-motorcycles_N.htm

As long as you ride then you're good by me. But when you start slamming an American company to make it sound like they are no more American than a foreign made product then you cross the line in my book.

Be happy with what you ride or shoot or drive. If you feel it necessary to tear down another product to build up your own feelings about what you bought then you must not really feel all that happy with your purchase.

I've owned a Honda before as well as a Vespa (back in the day) and I never had to rip into someone for their bike choice to make myself feel better. At the time I couldn't afford a better bike. I owned a 250 Honda Rebel. Loved it. Fun bike. I moved up to a 1996 Harley sportster. After riding that for 10+ years I bought a 2008 Harley Springer Crossbones. Love that bike. I still own the Sporty and ride it for short hops.

You just can't beat the American made bikes for quality (yes, over 80% of the bike is American made and they are the most important parts of the bike). The metal is thicker and stronger because steel is harder to come by in Japan. From what I remember they don't have much of a steel industry and have to rely on buying steel from countries like America and others to produce their cars and bikes. Don't believe me, just tap on a metric bikes tank or fenders and then on an American bikes equal parts. Plus a good number of the metric bikes parts are aluminum or plastic. Some parts on the metric bike look metal but are in fact plastic. I know. I've owned them and so do a number of my friends. They are happy with them and don't feel a need to slam the competition. They are happy with and proud of their decisions.

[Hickok]

The Marysville plant was closed a few years back and it was predominately Tooled for the 1300, 1800 VTX and Goldwing. My VTX is a 2002. It was assembled in Ohio.

You can't say GM, Ford, or any other vehicle is "All American" and HD cannot say it.  Harley Davidson is the one who needs to back up what they say with proof. Im not slamming any bike makers. I've been riding dirt and street since the late '60.

Go to some HD forums and do a search, about foreign parts on HDs.

I don't care what anyone rides either, but I don't buy the boast of HD being "all American."  I have friends who ride all makes and this subject is always a sore spot for one brand owner or the other.

The HD V-Rod engine has some German Porche engineering.

HD was "all Italian" under AMF in years gone by before the companies parted ways.

Lots of scources on the web, but this is a just a quick one   http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111126105511AAW3xFe

The scource is listed as   HD Master Tech and engine builder

I wont argue this subject because it nevers goes anywhere between the metric and HD opinions. Ride free and ride safe!

[Six Gun Saint]

I am going say it again, I never said that Colt or other American brands were not better, or not worth the extra money.  How people come to these conclusions after reading my posts, putting words in my mouth, I cannot stand.

I WILL say this though:  For the money, there is NOTHING wrong with any of the firearms you seem to be so deadset against.  And for the price I would have paid for ONE Colt revolver, I ended up with all of my SASS Match Gear.  How is this a bad plan?  How is this a bad thing?

AND:  Even if the firearms are not what I "Should" be using, does anyone ever really NEED an excuse to buy more guns?

SO.

Let's do a quick recap, to make sure I'm absolutely clear:  Colt is cream of the crop, but not everyone has money for them.  If you can't afford one, or can't afford a pre-1964 Winchester, or can't afford AMERICAN firearms, then get the clones.  Sure, they're not as fit or whatever, but they go bang every time you pull the trigger, and they're decent quality. 

The BEST gun is the one you have on you when you need it.

PERIOD.

[Six Gun Saint]

And I could tell you how my Ubertis have given me consistent accuracy within the parameters of each load every time I've shot 'em.  It's never been an issue for me, and I've put quite a few rounds through 'em.

Back in the day, yeah-there were some QC issues.  Today?  Not so much.  They're some of the better SASS guns out of the box, and they do what they're supposed to do.

They're accurate, and compete on par with Colt for SASS. 

I'll tell you a dirty little secret:  Accuracy is 90% the shooter.  My da can take any gun, so long as it's got a straight barrel, and hit anything he aims at.  Even a cheap little Saturday Night Special.  The gun don't make the shooter-the shooter makes the gun.

But, I weary of this conversation, you strike me as a contrarian, and while the conversation was interesting enough to start with, you've moved into a predictable pattern-no matter what I say about any firearm, if I'm not singing the praises of Colt or Ruger, you're going to bash whatever it is I've got to say.  So, to that end, MY end of this conversation is over.  You've your opinion, and you're welcome to it, but I'm tired of discussing it with you.

Enjoy.

[petrinal]

SIX GUN,

well, I have no problem admitting that my last 2  posts were  not neccesary. As a proof of respect, I have deleted them.

sorry for the inconvenience and please accept my excuses. Every one is entitled to his/her opinions.

all the best

[44caliberkid]

Getting back to the original intent of this post, guns, where they come from and how much they cost... before I spent $1000 for a Miroku Winchester I'd buy an original.   I can get '92's or Marlin 89's at estate auctions for $1000 or less.  They still shoot and will appreciate in value.
   As for the Harley's, I ride a 1975 FLH.  It was the last year for the American built glide front fork and has a Bendix carb.  Only thing is if I need parts they are usually made in China now.   

[sail32]

Before you talk too loudly about where a product is made, you might want to consider the following.

Who owns the company;

Where does the machinery that the product is made on, come from;

Where does the raw material, like iron ore come from.

If buying by country is good, then buying by state must be better and buying locally is even still better.

Following this line of reasoning, the best is to make everything yourself.

One of the reasons for the Great Depression was the trade barriers that countries put up to protect local business, look how that worked out.

The word enjoys its present level of civilization because of trade.

Trade is something that has been going on since the old stone age (Lower Paleolithic), that is where people did make almost everything they needed.

[petrinal]

I agree, but in the case of Chinese  imports, etc, you are harming your economy, by buying  their products. They dont care about the environment, and pay miserable wages.....and your industry just cant compete in those inhuman conditions of manufacturing....in other words, it is not fair trade at all.

in the case of PAKISTAN made products...like some leather goods I have seen for sale in the USA, you are financing ALKAEDA... so it does matter where things are made, specially if they come from countries that support international terrorism or just pay miserable wages to their people and contaminate.

in the european, american case,  good wages are paid, and all goods are manufactured according to strict environment rules, so by buying Italian, german or spanish,  for instance,  you are really practising "fair trade". You buy from them, they buy from you, as they dont compete playing dirty tricks, like Chinese do, where workers dont  enjoy holidays, work 12 hours a day for 200 dollar a month, and cant even defend their rights by joining a trade union or even go on strike.

it does matter the country you are buying from. For your country well being, dont buy chinese unless you just cant find and alternative..and please keep buying european..... as we´ll happily keep buying your great SWs, Rugers or Colts here...

in fact, we are negociating some masive imports of american goods here...(and still some accuse here me of antiamericanism!)...

there is a Free trade agreement project between USA and the European Union that might benefit both economic regions, and that might  let us buy many american goods here, that as I said, are much sought after, not only guns, but foods,  tools (american tools are very well regarded overseas), clothes, even some sport cars...etc.

[pakm]

I am now shooting uberti's. uberti rifles and uberti revolvers.  I tried Colt SA's 20 years ago and I just wasn't happy with them. I used to shoot Ruger SA'a(three screw) and they were ok,  but lately the SA rugers are crap. Strong, yes, very, shoot to point of aim. "NOT" I picked up a collection of SA Rugers in .45 LC and .38/357 there were five altogether. also there were two Tarus SA's in .38/357. the Tarus shot to point of aim. none of the Rugers shot to point of aim.  I've picked up several SA uberti's lately in all of the cowboy calibers and they all shot to point of aim. yes, Im talking about 32-20, 38-40, 44-40, 44 special, .45LC and .45 schofield. there is a opentop "colt" in .44 special and it's special to me.(very accurate) there is a schofield in .45 LC and it's a fine shooter and shoots to point of aim.(Russian model). No, I do not push any of these pistols.  6 gr.s of trail boss in every thing above the 32-20 and four gr.s of TB in .38 special and/or 32-20.  same load for the rifles. I picked up some of the pedersoli "lighting" rifles. the one i'm shooting in .44-40 is accurate and reliable I 'm also shooting a spencer in .45 schofield. it does have it quirts but it's a lot of fun also. so I think I"m getting the best bang for my buck with the ubertis(rifle or pistol). but there are a couple of older marlins that are fine guns(ok, they are in .45-70 cal. ) and one model 57(figure that one out) no, it's no longer made and mines not for sale.
  Now, you are right about the S&W's. I have two of each "N" frame cal. you can't beat the .41 mag. with a 6 inch barrel. but I do have a couple of the Hertiage models and they are sweet! and accurate.  Of course you can't hardly beat the 586/686 ones either good trigger and very, very accurate.  and I love my model 544 in .44-40. (yes, It's a shooter)

[Michael Bear]

Excellent post! That's right- the country of origin matters. Now it matters to me that my guns will be the highest quality I could afford so Colt, original Winchester etc must be from USA. I can care less if my boxers say Taiwan or China on them.
But guns are guns. Shoot the rest but try to get originals. I made few offers for New Haven made Winchester. Colt's are on gunbroker in variety.
Bear

[sharps1863]

On the same note, Hi-Point firearms are mostly crap.  It's hit and miss with them.  You can get one that works great, no worries-and sure, get a matching carbine to go with it, why not?  But you've also got the issue of it may not work at all, right out of the box.  They're made right here in the US of A.

I have owned/own High Point arms made weapons, Ugly yes, P.O.S. No. I have never had a problem with any of the High Point Arms weapons I have or have owned. They are Made in The US with a lifetime Warranty.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/handgun_reviews_hipoint_100605/
This is from High Points web Site.
The Hi-Point Warranty
All Hi-Point firearms carry a lifetime, "no-questions asked warranty." Whether you are the original purchaser, or the third-hand owner, your Hi-Point firearm will be repaired free of charge.
Find another Gun Maker that will do that.