500 S&W black powder?

[Eric F]

Hi folks New member here not too sure if this belongs here or not since it isnt really an action shooting subject but here it goes any way.
I was thinking about the 500 s&w and thought for a rifle round sure why not but how much fun would it be in black powder. I use to load 45/70 with black powder and then just for fun loaded a few other things in bp like 9mm 38 spl(both for revolver pretty fun to shoot but it s usefulness is limited. So with all this being said I might start looking for a handi rifle in 500 S&w(great rainy day gun in the brush)and try a black powder load. depending on case capacity(I have never looked at it)might be comming out to 50/50?

While I am at it wonder what this would be like necked down to 45, or 40 cal??
so I was at work and bored and figured on this.......
500 S&W case 1.625" primed a 500 gr lead bullet from http://www.mountainmolds.com/menu.htm its just a basic designed bullet I made up any way bullet is 1.012 long seated .571 into the case making OAL 2.066" then after doing some guestimating I figured the left over case capacity was 3.63 CC's which acording to http://www.mountainmolds.com/menu.htm comes out to 55 gr I accounted for a slight compression of the black powder load and using a greased over powder felt wad from a felt sheet.

So I deem this cartrige the 50-55-500

Any volunteers to run out to 50 yards with a catchers mit to catch the bullets?

I am going to try to order a Newengland fire arms handi rifle to play with this stuff next week Just a conservitave guess but I bet a 500 gr 50 cal bullet over 55 gr bp in a 22 inch barrel is doing 875 fps and have the ballistics of a softball.

[Dick Dastardly]

Sounds like a great project.  Also, a possible "Plainsman" rifle?  I'll watch this thread.  FWIW Paul Jones makes a great bp bullet for this caliber.  El Paso Pete used to shoot one in 50-90

DD-DLoS

[Eric F]

Being new here what exactly are you folks calling a "Plainsman Rifle"?  Its going to take me a while to grt the stuff together I dont own one yet however the New England Firearms Co. makes a handi rifle in 500 S&W I would really like to find a sharps rifle for this round.  Does any one have a refrence for a custom sharps builder?

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Eric,

I have a friend/gunsmith that can build you a custom Sharps.  However were I you, I'd get the Handi rifle and explore the potential.  If it really pans out, spending $1800 on a custom built gun would be worth the effort and folding green.  However, if the Handi rifle proves not equal to your expectations it is easily sold for near what you spent on it.

Less gold than most.

DD-DLoS

[Delmonico]

Well what ya would have would be about half way between the 50-50 Maynard/50 US Carbine and the 50-70 Government.  You modern brass would be closer the to Carbine/Maynard load in capacity, but closer in length to the 50-70.

[Dick Dastardly]

I like the fact that there is modern ammo, and thus - brass, that can be had and made to work to our ends.  Were I able, I'd like to find a good modern substitute for 45-90 brass.  The way it is, they hold you by the jock strap for each piece and there's not a genuine reason.  Supply and demand forces the price of exotic hulls beyond anything near reasonable based on the price of modern brass.

If this .50 caliber works out with BP, we can take advantage of modern brass and old time fun.

Let 'er flicker.

DD-DLoS

[Eric F]

I am still at work until teusday(firefighter) any way but I am thinking the 458 winchester magnum is longer than a 45-70 thus making for more case capacity.not sure if it would make it to the 90 gr.  FYI back in the early 90's this guy was at 3 consecutive gunshows with a stack of sharps actions and barrels of various chambers.  He could assemble a rifle with an unfinished stock on the spot for $600 including dies.  He got upset when I asked for common chamber s of the time like .308 ect I didnt know where to find 45-anything.  Or 50-anything and neither did he.  So I passed what a misteak that was.  Any way money is tight right now but perhaps in a month or so I can get started.  This all started with a what if?  I will look into a 45-90 alternative for you guys on wednesday being stuck here at work for 72 hrs really backs up my free time at home so tuesday if for lawn mowing house work and weather permitting a short fishing trip.  This is a great site with lots of information thanks guys.

[Eric F]

just with rough calculations the 458 winchester magnum with the 458-405 gr bullet would hold 80 gr black powder.  If I had a case and a bullet I couls cc the left over space and be more accurate but I do not think it would get much better.

[Delmonico]

Well if 375 H&H brass is cheaper than 45-90, just anneal the necks, put in a charge of Bullseye, filler with corn meal and cap it with some wax and blow them out to a 450 Akley, that ought to hold enough powder for anyone.

[Grapeshot]

Hi folks New member here not too sure if this belongs here or not since it isnt really an action shooting subject but here it goes any way.
I was thinking about the 500 s&w and thought for a rifle round sure why not but how much fun would it be in black powder. I use to load 45/70 with black powder and then just for fun loaded a few other things in bp like 9mm 38 spl(both for revolver pretty fun to shoot but it s usefulness is limited. So with all this being said I might start looking for a handi rifle in 500 S&w(great rainy day gun in the brush)and try a black powder load. depending on case capacity(I have never looked at it)might be comming out to 50/50?

While I am at it wonder what this would be like necked down to 45, or 40 cal??
so I was at work and bored and figured on this.......
500 S&W case 1.625" primed a 500 gr lead bullet from http://www.mountainmolds.com/menu.htm its just a basic designed bullet I made up any way bullet is 1.012 long seated .571 into the case making OAL 2.066" then after doing some guestimating I figured the left over case capacity was 3.63 CC's which acording to http://www.mountainmolds.com/menu.htm comes out to 55 gr I accounted for a slight compression of the black powder load and using a greased over powder felt wad from a felt sheet.

So I deem this cartrige the 50-55-500

Any volunteers to run out to 50 yards with a catchers mit to catch the bullets?

I am going to try to order a Newengland fire arms handi rifle to play with this stuff next week Just a conservitave guess but I bet a 500 gr 50 cal bullet over 55 gr bp in a 22 inch barrel is doing 875 fps and have the ballistics of a softball.

I had several of those .500 S&W cases, and I don't think that the rims are conducive to making them work in a single shot rifle.  I had a Pedasoli Baby Roling Block Carbine in .45 Colt that would not extract .45 Colt cartridges all the time.  I'm not saying that it can't be done, just check the geometry of the case and rim and calculate what it will need in the way of an extractor to be used efficiently.

Just as an aside, I was thinking of increasing the bore size of my Dragoon to .500 caliber and boring out an R&D cylinder to accept one of the .500 Special wildcat rounds to use blackpowder in with the lightest .50 cal bullet I could find.  A manstopper for sure.

[Notomo]

I have been thinking about the same kind of stuff for quite a while, I love shooting bp in "modern" cartridges started with a marlin lever in .45 colt now I do a lot of loads for .410 was going to try .38 and .357 but never got to it. But my current/long term obsession has been the .500 Reason being I shoot a lot of .452 so end up with some bullets I don't like in certain guns so like to see if they will work in others. Anyhow there's not a whole lot available in "rifles" that will take a .452 and have wanted to try doing a .500 smith with 50 cal sabots shooting the .452 bullets over a bp load. I think that could be a fun combination and still have the 500 bullets you can mess with if you want to pay for them.

Just seems like it could be a very versatile single shot rifle if sabots would work, main worry is accuracy. Laying plastic should not be a problem since shooting bp should be at low enough velocities to not cause it, same with leading in 50cal muzzle loader bullets in same cartridge.

I LOVE shooting long range with bp there's just nothing like hearing your gun fire then seconds later hearing the bullet slapping dirt downrange.

So anyhow have you gotten any further on this?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The one dimension not generally found in the available tables is RIM THICKNESS.

Yes a H&H belted magnum case can be converted by turning off the belt if necessary.  Unfortunately the remaining rim is slight, but more critically - TOO THIN!  There are fixes, but time consuming and awkward.

The only uses for belted magnum cases FOR ME are 1. cutting them to make BP measures, and 2. Again cutting them off at the shoulder, to make .45 wad punches.

[Notomo]

The one dimension not generally found in the available tables is RIM THICKNESS.

Yes a H&H belted magnum case can be converted by turning off the belt if necessary.  Unfortunately the remaining rim is slight, but more critically - TOO THIN!  There are fixes, but time consuming and awkward.

The only uses for belted magnum cases FOR ME are 1. cutting them to make BP measures, and 2. Again cutting them off at the shoulder, to make .45 wad punches.

Might be the info your looking for here http://ammoguide.com/?catid=221 looks like maybe .059 If I am reading that right. Looks like .45-70 is .070 http://ammoguide.com/?catid=38

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

O No! NOT ANOTHER FORUM THAT I MUST JOIN!!

[rifle]

I wouldn't recommend converting a Dragoon to 500SW. Those percussion revolvers are made to fire with  a chamber not bored thru. The back of the chambers take the pressure. The converted guns with bored thru chambers have the frame take the pressure. The frames aren't realy all that strong when the pressures of a 50cal. bullet and about 80gr. black  are considered.
There's reason the manufacturers limit the convertions to black powder or the equiv. in smokeless for the 45 Colt. That's a 45 bullet with around 30+ gr. black.
I've heard of the Ruger Old Army being safely converted to 50cal. but I thunk it is a percussion.