Winchester 1892 - Pressures

[Fal205]

I'm brand new to reloading - haven't even set up my bench yet as I'm still in research mode. I purchased a Winchester 1892 (manufactured in 1912) and a Winchester 94 from an auction a few weeks ago and have had tons of fun with them at my range. The 1892 is chambered in 44-40 and the only cartridges I managed to find were the Winchester John Wayne Commemorative cartridges at $90 (Canadian) for a box of 50. Needless to say, that's why I'm investigating/researching reloading!

The Model 94 that I have was manufactured in 1952, according to the serial number and I've been using standard Winchester 30-30 ammo without any problems.

My questions are related to CUP. I see that many reloading tables list maximum CUP for the 44-40 as around 11-12,000 psi. The 30-30 is listed in the 30,000 psi range. Before I start loading my 44-40 with pressures too great for my rifle, can someone help me understand why my Model 94 can handle more than 3 times the pressure of my 1892 when I've read that the action on the 1892 is far stronger than the Model 94? Is the breech/chamber/barrel on the 1892 weak? Is the 11-12,000 psi rating more for a 44-40 revolver? I'm confused and I can't afford to be, obviously, when reloading.

Looking for help...

Thanks

[Trailrider]

The Lyman 49th Edition Reloading Handbook divides rifles into Group 1 and Group 2, of which the Winchester M1892 is in the Group 2 catagory. According to the Lyman handbook, Group 2 maximum is 22,000 CUP, whereas rifles like the M1873 and Colt's Frontier Six Shooters should not exceed 13,700 CUP. There are a number of factors that need to be taken into consideration when handloading the .44-40. First, for best results, you should slug the bore to determine the groove diameter of the barrel. While the nominal diameter of bullets for .44-40 was .427" (rather than the .429" used in modern .44 Magnum guns), actual measurements of .44-40 barrels can wander all over the place. I've seen them run as large as .434"! The general rule for good accuracy with lead (and I would recommend sticking to cast bullets for the earlier barrels) is .001" over groove diameter. The problem there that may come up is if the barrel is sufficiently oversized, but the chamber is a "nominal" one, a properly sized bullet may made the neck of the case so big it won't chamber easily. A chamber casting using CerroSafe Low Melting Point alloy will be helpful, though you can also make up a "dummy" round and see how it chambers with the selected bullet. Another factor is the brass you select. Modern .44-40 brass can vary considerably in the thickness of the case wall, depending on the brand. Winchester brass generally has the thinnest walls, Remington brass is usually the thickest, with Starline somewhere in between. Personally, I prefer Winchester brass, but availability may affect you selection. Winchester's Cowboy ammo generally uses .428" bullets, and the loaded ammo isn't cheap, but it might be one way to get the brass. If you find you need to use .429" or .430" bullets, you should purchase a .44 Magnum expander die plug. This will help prevent collapsed cases from trying to seat the bigger bullet.  Load-wise, follow the recommended powder charges. Fior CAS loads, you need to keep the muzzle velocity  no greater than 1400 ft/sec., If you are loading for a revolver as well, the maximum is 1000 ft/sec, and such a load will be well below the rifle limit in your rifle. The .44-40 case was designed fro black powder, and as such has a lot of powder space with smokeless. A number of powders will work, but there will be a lot of empty space with proper  powder charges. One owder that helps this is Trail Boss, which is bulky. Most of the medium-burning pistol powder will work well, including the old standby, Unique, or a similar one, Hodgdon's UNIVERSAL. W238/HP38 (same powder, different brand name, also will work pretty well. I always recommennd that the mouth of the case be crimped into a grease groove as firmly as can be managed without bulging the case away from teh bullet. Get a manual and read up on reloadding, if you decide to go that route.

BE SURE TO HAVE THE RIFLE CHECKED BY A COMPETANT GUNSMITH, WHO KNOWS m'92'S.

[QueensHorseman]

The model 92 in .44-40 is one of my favorite guns to shoot.  I have been using 200 grain cast bullets over 8.5 grains of Unique power in Winchester brass for years.  This is a standard pressure load that I can shoot in both rifle and revolver.  I had a local fellow who used to cast my bullets for me from an RCBS mold.  For normal .44-40 shooting, a cast bullet that is fairly soft works better but most commercial casters make their bullets extremely hard.  Sometimes they work fine, depending on your bore diameter, as has already been mentioned.  The Bullet Barn out of BC sells cast bullets, has a web site, and will ship for a reasonable price.  I have used them for modern rifle bullets with good success in .30 caliber and 9.3.   There is also a fellow out west that goes by M.T. Chambers who will cast softer bullets for older rifles and he is reported to be excellent however, I have never dealt with him personally.  A quick Google search should fine him.

When I first got my 92 many years ago,  I experimented a bit with high velocity loads using cast and Winchester jacketed bullets.  For my use though, I found the standard velocity loads worked really well and I enjoy taking a .44 with me to the range or when deer hunting in close cover. Enjoy your rifle.

[w44wcf]

Fal205,
Welcome to the forum.  Nice find.  
The pards have given excellent advice.  

In answer to your question "... can someone help me understand why my Model 94 can handle more than 3 times the pressure of my 1892....?"  
The '94 in .30 W.C.F. (.30-30), .25-35 and .32 W.S.  was developed specifically for those cartridges which developed 38,000 CUP (42,000 PSI) and the cartridge case is robust enough to handle those pressures.    

The '92 was developed to shoot the original '73 cartridges (.32, .38 & .44 W.C.F.) which were lower pressure cartridges. However, in 1903, WInchester, knowing that the '92 would handle higher pressure than the weaker '73,  came out with the W.H.V. (Winchester High Velocity) cartridges designed specifically for their '92.  

The pressure developed was in the 22,000 p.s.i. range and thus gave increased ballistics.  Folks have loaded the .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 to higher pressures than that  in the '92 but since the cartridge case is weaker, case separations will sometimes be the result.

Modern versions of the '92 are chambered in .44 Magnum which develops pressures similar to the .30-30.  

w44wcf  

[sail32]

Hi Fal205,

I shoot .44-40 in an Uberti Henry and a Pietta Colt with a 7 ½" barrel.

Three good books for .44-40 information are Mike Venturino's ; "Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West", "Shooting Sixguns of the Old West", and Lyman's  "49th Edition Reloading Handbook" as mentioned by Trailrider.

Those three books cover smokeless and blackpowder loadings for rifles and pistols in .44-40.

I use a 0.430" expander/compression die from Track, and Lee's "Factory Crimp Die".

The pressures for the new European weapons in .44-40 are found on this page.
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=6&cartridge_type_id=2

In Europe the .44-40 and .45 Colt are proofed to the same pressure.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Fal205 & QueensHorseman;  Welcome to cascity.com, and I presume to frontier action shooting as well.  I see that you are Canadian, and I invite you to post your location and a bit about yourself in CHINOOK COUNTRY in this forum, a place where Canucks and friends gather.

[Sagebrush Burns]

The M-92 is a strong action.  Modern versions of will handle the 454 Casull which is a high pressure load.  If you're going to us it for plinking or cowboy action shooting there is no need to load any stronger than standard loads.  If you want to hunt with it you may want to use a stouter load.  Before you go to far along any path check several manuals for verified load information.  Be vary wary of your buddies:  :well I load..."