Has anyone used just rusty water for their Black natural dye?

[Slickshot]

Will Ghormley doesn't use vinegar for his natural black dye concoction.

Have any of you tried his version without the vinegar?  I have some brewing so to speak, 000 steel wool in water, turning rusty, but has had no effect on a piece of veg tanned leather and I left it in overnight.  It didn't even darken it...


Thank you for any information you can give on this type of dye with no acids added to the leather, with no need of neutralizing.

Slickshot

[ChurchandSon]

Saved this from somewhere when I was researching non-acid blacks.....Used since ancient times but I have yet to find any Oak Galls.....

"One of the more difficult dye colors to make is black since there are few black plants or fruits from which you can extract that color. The most effective source of natural black dye is oak galls. These are growths on oak trees that are created by natural plant hormones and chemicals released by inhabiting insects.

The dye created by the galls is a true black, surprising as the galls are green to light brown, according to the Tehachapi (California) News. In reporting the July 2008 visit of Native American basketmakers, demonstrating the dye process, "Oak Stem Galls Used for the Blackest Dye Imaginable" notes that after adding the galls the mixture is clear and dying looks "unlikely," but the brew eventually becomes dark black."

[GunClick Rick]

I'll be gall danged BUT,i have oak galls all over the place here,i even made ornaments once from a couple.The oak tree is our city tree,i knew they had to be good for somethin,now i'll go collect bags of them.30.00 a bag boys,line up right over there 

The best gall dang galls ya ever saw
now don't go gettin fake buckeye balls fellas
i'll gar-run-tee my galls are the best
This oak will soak~get a sack
for your best black

[bedbugbilly]

Hmmm . . . this has got me to wondering . . .

Anyone who has had experience in working with Red Oak and having it get wet is well aware of the blackish stain that can occur on the wood- from the natural tannic acid in the wood.  Never really thought about it . . . wonder what would happen if you put a pile of shavings in a gallon of water?  If I was going to try it, I'd probably use shavings from a jointer rather than sawdust.  It might be worth a try?  At the present, I don't have any shavings but may experiment with it when I do.

In regards to the use of rusty water . . . . I believe I ran across a post onthis forum in the past (may be wrong on that - may have been another source) of where the fellow kept a drum of rusty water which he'd use to dye leather in - submerge it for a while util he got the shade he wanted.  Could be wrong . . . but I'm thinking that good dense rusty water would give you a reddish/brownish shade wouldn't it instead of black?

[Camano Ridge]

Go to Wills site and click on the Hand Of God holster pattern he has a several page tutorial that also covers is rust tank. It sounds a little bit more complex then just steel wool in the water. He does say the longer you leave the leather in the water the darker it will get. For the hand of god holster he pulled it out early (does not say how long it was in) for the aged grayish look.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I live in a municipality named after the Garry Oak tree.  I lease four of them.  I don't own them as they are protected and I can only trim them if the branches are under 2 inch. diameter.  They are a burden as they drop lots of leaves which I have to rake and dispose of. This year there was a bumper crop of acorns and the eastern grey squirrels love them.

I noticed that the leaves leave a dark brown stain on the pavement after soaking in the rain awhile. I can't use the leaves for mulch either.  While they prevent weeds if left on the garden beds, they might actually be inhibiting plant growth if turned in.

All that to get to my question.  Can I boil down some oak leaves like folks do with coffee grounds? I haven't tried it yet, as my domestic engineer would have a fit if I do it in her kitchen.

[ChuckBurrows]

I have and it works fine but takes MUCH longer to brew up since the rusting/dissolving of the iron takes a lot longer.

There are two other options for period correct black dye:

Ferric nitrate crystals available from The Science Company - http://www.sciencecompany.com/General-Chemicals-C670.aspx?s=Name ASC&p=3
Easy and simple to use mix at 10:1 water and crystals - if not strong enough try 8:1
A mix used at least from the 18th Century and NO odor.....

Logwood also makes a great dye and can be purchased from several sutlers as well as trapping suppliers:
For Black.—First boil a potfull of walnut root, take out the root then, add extract of logwood enough to dye it black; add a small portion of acetate [sic] of copper aka copperas. Use cheap black tea (Lipton, et.), oak, or walnut hulls will do if you cannot get the walnut root - like with vinegar black the reason for the tea, walnut, or oak is to increase the tannins - it's the reaction between the iron in solution or the logwood and the tannins that gives the color black.

LOGWOOD BLACK
This black is unequaled for finishing. It is made by dissolving 1 pound of extract of log wood, 1/2 ounce of bichromate of potash, and 1 ounce of copperas in 1 gallon of water. Another formula, differing from the first in the quantities, is to dissolve 1 pound of extract of logwood, 2 ounces of Copperas, and 1 1/2 ounces of bichromate of potash in 1 1/2 gallons of water.

Boil a quantity of logwood bark in double its bulk of rain water for two or three hours, then straining off and adding 1/4 of a pound of potash to 2 gallons of the liquor. This makes a good grain as well as edge black.

Boil 1 pound of ground logwood, 1 pound of nut galls, and 1 ounce of verdigris in 1 gallon of water for two hours, then remove from the fire and allow it to stand until it is cold ; strain off the liquor, and it will be ready for use. If to 1 pint of this mixture be added 1/4 pound of white wax, 1/2 pound of brown sugar, and  1/2 pound of bone black rubbed smooth in turpentine, and the whole heated until thoroughly amalgamated, an excellent wax for finishing edges. will be produced.

[Cliff Fendley]

Well there you go.... the master has spoken! Chuck, your wealth of knowledge never ceases to amaze me, thanks for sharing.

[ChuckBurrows]

You're welcome Cliff (even though I'm blushing  )

A couple of notes - potash is poassium chloride and can again be purchased at the Science Company http://www.sciencecompany.com/Potassium-Chloride-100g-P15972.aspx, it's also used as a fertilizer, or you can make your own - take rainwater or as pure a water as you can get and let leach through a bucket full of compacted wood ash (hardwoods are best). Take the liquid after leaching and let it evaporate off the white residue left is potash.

Copperas is ferrous aka Iron Sulfate - this can also be purchased at the Science Company, at most home garden supplies, or at the health food store via iron supplements, but (you just knew there would be one!  ) I suggest replacing it with ferric nitrate, ferric chloride, or ferric acetate (aka vinegaroon). Iron sulphates can lead to the breakdown of the leather since it also contains sulphur a known cause of an irreversible leather destroying condition known as red rot (mostly due to the sulphur component in smog)

[ChurchandSon]

I love these threads....About the time you think you know everything....

My quench bucket at the forge is brine water with several years of rusty/scaly goo down in the bottom..
Rain fills it up, I add the salt and 1500 degree iron quenches keep it stirred...
This mixture will dye hide a dark grayish black but not as rich as vinegaroon...nor as fast....
I wonder if Mr. Ghormley adds salt to his water/iron tub?

Here's an interesting article on rust dying fabrics.....Love those crafty Ladies.......

http://www.prairiefibers.com/Rust%20Dyeing.htm
 

[brazosdave]

I used some steel wool with white vinegar and let it rust up, it works good on pine for giving a weathered look, tried it on leather(just the edges, and it did darken them. I did not try it on the smooth side, so not sure what kind of look you would get with that.

[buckskin billy]

hey brother chuck, this potash stuff you're talking about is it the same stuff as koh thats used in brain tanning hides?

[GunClick Rick]

Where is ole Will by the way??? HEEEEEEY WILL~~~~~~

[ChuckBurrows]

hey brother chuck, this potash stuff you're talking about is it the same stuff as koh thats used in brain tanning hides?

Hey there brutha - KOH is a more caustic version of potash more on the level of lye, but should work OK - maybe use less and experiment. Potash, KOH, etc are all base materials i.e. alkaline and are used to neutralize acids and logwood, vinegaroon, ferric nitrate, etc are all acidic so looks to me by adding potash to the logwood and copperas you're creating a more neutral dye without need to use a baking soda wash after wards.
I've used commercial potash for neutralizing the acids I use for aging metal and tried some straight on leather after using vinegar black and it burned the surface a bit so I'd be careful with it - then again it left an aged finish much like seen on old holsters - on one piece I left it a bit too long and got a real crackelure finish similar to the guys who use lye via Easy Off for finishing. Anyone using these stronger base materials (lye, potash, washing soda, etc/) be sure and wear gloves unless you want "burnt skin" leaves flesh feeling real slick after use - bet you've notice that Billy

BTW - been meaning to call, but it's been so bloody hectic this last year between my health and the unexpected move I just plum run out of time...but I tain't forgot about your knife and sheath