Early open top holster

[john beattie]

Hi All
After seeing a holster on a forum i decided to to give one ago, i dropped the guy a line to ask a little about it, he said when it was made he was looking for and early example of a revolver holster he could use for California Gold Rush impression circa 1850 and it was taken from page 66 of Packing Iron.(photo)
Packing Iron refer to it as an open top holster but i was hoping to find out a little more about the style or any other names it may go under,The belt loop was pure speculation so it would be interesting to know if correct or if anyone has another suggestion how it may have been done.
The Revolver is a Dragoon and as far a i know large pistols like this were not worn on the belt in great numbers at this time so i would be very interested if anyone has any info they would like to share.

Many thanks
john

[Slowhand Bob]

I think they are most commonly referred to as California Sli Jims.  My understand is that they might have evolved from earlier flap holsters.  Someone cut away the flap, for whatever reason and voilà!  I'm sure someone with more historical information will pop in and help out.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Here's how I put the belt loop on mine. As best I can tell from pictures, this is close to correct. I haven't had the opportunity to inspect an original but certainly will given the chance. I don't put a rivet at the top of the loop because that would rub on the cylinder but I suspect there may have been one there on the originals. I'm sure one of the more knowledgeable leatherworkers here will know the answer better than I.

[bedbugbilly]

I've made several with the loop like Will shows and have also done a couple with the loop sewn on the back flat with just stitching along the top and along the bottom.  Personally, I like the flat belt loop as I think it hugs the holster closer to the body and if it is made to the belt size, a little easier to pull the pistol without a lot of holster movement.  There is one advantage that I see to the way Will shows - if the loop is a little wider than the belt, it allows the holster to either be worn on the dominant side or pushed aroud to the other side for cross draw.  While I like the loop tighter, I also think about what a person needs if they are riding on a horse.  If I was, I would probably ride with holster at cross draw position and I would want it so there was enough play in the loop to allow for the cant of the holster.

I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way.  We can study the originals (fif we're lucky enough to find any to study) but we also have to remember all of them that didn't survive the years.  Leatherworkers were creative the same as those on this board and I would imagine that if a fellow went to six different fellas on this board and asked them to design a holster for him, there would be six different designs as far as construction.

Your holster looks nice by the way!

[WaddWatsonEllis]

John Beattie.

California Slim Jim Holsters were pretty much the developed by Maine and Winchester in San Francisco. Specializing in leather work, they made McClellan Saddles and cavalry tack for the Western cavalry as well as implementing most changes in the style.

The were characterized by high tops and (most of the time) sewn bottoms of the holsters (i.e. toe plugs).  Slim Jims were also defined by the belt 'flap being sewn to the back of the holster bucket in much the way your picture shows ...

The big problem with this type of holster (and why it was supplanted by the variations of the 'Mexican' rig) was that it was difficult to work the holster belt loop around cartridges loops ... in black powder days most gun belts were flush and smooth ....

http://www.vintagegunleather.com/shoppe/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=559

OF No incidence o this thread, they were the first four-story building in San Francisco. ....

[Marshal Will Wingam]

WW, do you have a picture of how that type of belt loop would be done? It sounds like a good way to do it. I got a lot of my design from the pictures in Packing Iron on pages 81, 84 and 92. Page 91 shows a little bit of the loop showing at the top of the pouch, too. On page 82, there is one exactly like the one you show in your pictures, John, so that is just as correct.

Like Billy says, I can slide mine to the cross draw position which is much better for sitting and probably riding although I've never carried one on a horse. I also like this type of loop for CAS since it tilts the top of the holster away from the body for ease of access for drawing.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Marshal Will Wingam,,

I think the only references I have are the same ones you use ... I just got a verbal 'heads up' on the  Maine & Winchester source from local reenactors in the Old Sacramento Living History Program ... But I don't think they used rivets to attach the belt loops 'cause it might scar the cylinders ... otherwise, your belt loop looks spot on!

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Marshall Will Wingam,

This is my third attempt at posting this: I hope it works this time!

What I had said was from verbal info on the Maine & Winchester was from fellow reenactors at the Old Sacramento Living History Program ... I am afraid that my physical resources are the same as yours ...

You pic looked like most of the Slim Jim holsters that I have seen, except very few used rivets. I think makers were nervous about scratching the cylinders ....

[Skeeter Lewis]

Nice work, John.
I've never tried that sort of loop but maybe I should because the usual, riveted loop never gives me a good result. The holster never lies neatly and firmly against the belt. But maybe that's me not doing it right.

[john beattie]

Hi Guy's
Many thanks for all your comments much appreciated, Iv'e noticed the photo in Packing Iron on page 66 is in a section of flap holsters so maybe that particular holster was originally a flap holster like Bob says, My normal belt loop is the same as yours Marshal with a singal rivet and on closer inspection of that photo from Packing Iron you can see the line of the belt is quite hight up making the flat loop i used incorect and more like yours or as Wadd says the flap folded back over, A flat loop may have worked better like Billy says especially with the holster being molded as you do get a slightly tighter fit and with the gun being a large one there may have been a lot of holster movment on the draw.
one thing that is puzzling me is what would the reason be for folding the flap back to make a loop on a flap holster when the holster would already have a loop on it, would it be just for a lower position or stronger/wider loop, iv'e read they would tuck the flap into the belt or trousers for easy faster access to the gun but to sewn it would mean they were creating a new loop and discarding the one already on, am i correct in thinking a folded flap would give a more of a crossdraw angle if folded along the same line.
I see you point about sliding the holster along the belt if there had been cartridge loops attached, a flat loop would make it much easier

Thanks for your comment Skeet, it was Boot over on the Shootists forum that i copied the holster from he put the flat loop on his, he did say it was pure speculation and like billy says there must be many different ways, Boot said the flat loop added a little strength to the back with it being a large revolver so i can understand that.

Anyway guy's thank you all again for your help it's always interesting to see what you all have to say
Thanks for the link Wadd that looks to be a good site

All the best
john

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi,

I searched my pics file, and the only back of a Slim Jim I was able to find was this modern copy of a commercial Slim Jim ...

TTFN,



P.S. There were and are Slim Jims with the holster sewn together at the bottom, but the predominant desgn was with a sewn in toe plug ...

http://www.vintagegunleather.com/company-marks/mainwin_history.html

[Slowhand Bob]

It could arguably be said that there is not a single element the defines a holster as a California Slim Jim.  My thought would be that there are a certain number of elements that, when appearing together, we just agree on it being a Slim Jim??  As mentioned earlier, they commonly had a toe plug or cap in place but it was definitely not universal for the era.  Often they were a baggy/oversized fit but there are some well publicised exceptions to that, really nice fitted holsters dating prior to the Civil War.  I always considered the 'attached' belt loop as the number one defining element but then,  many consider the rolled over and sewn back to be just as authentic?  I do know that most of the old Tandy Slim Jim patterns use the rolled over back  while the newer Ghormly Slim Jim Pattern pack uses the sewn on strap.  My only reference is the PACKING IRON book and I could see if they actually show a Slim Jim with the rolled over belt loop prior to the advent of the Mex Loop era but even lacking that would not make it official?           

[Trailrider]

There is one other authentic slim jim holster which has a strap to secure the pistol (a M1851 Colt's Navy). The strap was probably NOT in this configuration originally, (most likely a full- or half-flap) based on some stitching that has no function. Instead, it was altered (probably by its original owner), narrowing the bottom part of the strap so it would go through a buckle that was held to the body by a sewn-on billet about half-way up the body of the holster!  The strap itself is secured to the back of the holster by sandwiching it between the belt loop and the holster body. The belt loop is sewn flat to the strap, with the stitching going through both and into the body. The holster is lined with a roll-over-the-top apparently of pigskin. Certainly, a holster that retains the gun with a buckled strap isn't meant for fast draw, though the strap could be tucked back of the belt. The original owner, was a Mormon pioneer and justice-of-the-peace, and survived to a ripe old age, so a fast draw apparently wasn't paramount. To see a copy of the holster, although not of the back side, go to www.gunfighter.com/trailrider, and look for the #1851 Utah Scout.

[ChuckBurrows]

1) both types of belt loops were used in period - as noted for the first type used by the OP you can see an original on page 82 of Packing Iron - on the holster by W.H. Watkinds & Co. So while the type may be speculative for this particular holster it is a period design although based on my own studies of a couple thousand originals it the less common style

2) The more common style was the separate folded/sewn/riveted style shown by Marshall Wingam - this type is shown on page 84 in Packing Iron on a holster by E. L. Gallatin. Note it includes the rivet on the lower end of the loop as did most of the originals I've handled/viewed - rivets on holster belt loops were common not uncommon.

as for Main (not Maine) & Winchester they used both types including the folded loop with rivet which can be seen on this original M & W http://historical.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=6023&lotIdNo=30028#Photo - (IMO the two smaller rivets are later additions)  You will have to register to see the larger images but it's free and you can still see the loop on the smaller image. BTW - using proper care and cross referencing to other sources, auction sites/catalogs such as HA, Cowans, James D. Julia, Gary Hendershott, Butterfield's, etc are some of the most valuable resources available for research.

3) Rivets under the loop fold over are less common but can be found on some holsters of the period. The lower rivet does not touch the gun when the loop is made right. IMO scratching guns was not an important consideration in period or at least much less so - the folks that used their guns on a daily basis were far more concerned with protection form the weather and keeping it shooting than keeping it looking good.

4) Traditionally Slim Jims (a modern collector's term) aka California holsters do have certain design elements which include the separately attached belt loop, the shaped seam line of the pouch, and no skirt. Holsters otherwise built as a Slim Jim, but without a separate belt loop - i.e. a narrow folded over belt loop - were known as half breeds or "bastard" holsters - all pre-1900 originals I've seen made this way are either cut down Mexican loops or military holster with a flap turned into a belt loop.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Great information. Thanks for all the input, pards. The more I learn, the more I see there isn't any one 'right' way to do it.

[Slowhand Bob]

Great input chuck and I particularly appreciate the info in #4.  I have always thought there should have evolved a better 'official'  dictionary of leather and holster terms.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Chuck,

As always I bow to your superior knowledge on holsters ...and thank you for catching my typo on Main & Winchester ...
and I added a link on my post to an antique holster company that has a history page on M&W ...

[Boot]

Hello,
       I'm the one responsible for the first copy which prompted John to make his own.
I think Chuck has pretty well answered most of the questions raised.
One point that does seem to of gone unnoticed however is the cut-down Military flap holster theory.
I don't believe this is the case with the holster shown in the picture circa 1850.
Military flap holsters were first introduced with the adoption of the .36 Navy Colt in 1855, therefore they were not in use with the U.S. Military circa 1850. I do believe the picture to be fairly accurate to that date. Also there is no visible means of securing a flap.

Boot.