Broken shell/case separation in Rossi Carbine

[Ghostface Charlie]

Gentlemen (& Ladies),
I shoot an older Interarms/Rossi Model 92 Carbine. It has just come back from the place of purchase, a pawn shop here in Tucson, where they have repaired it free for the second time. I've used only new ammo in it, and it has happened once with Federal .38 special brass, and once with Blazer .357 aluminum cases. The cartridge fires, the shell separates, and about 5/8" of shell "tube" sticks in the barrel, about an inch from the action/receiver end.
I have 3 questions:
1) why has this happened twice in 2 months?

2) how can I fix this myself? the guys at the shop are great, but i'd like to be able to repair this in the field. I checked a a few gun shows and the Brownell's online store, and can't find an extraction tool in .38/.357. Would a 9mm tool work?

3) how can I prevent this from happening? The rifle is well cared for, properly (not overly) lubed and clean. i shoot only new ammo since this began. It's become a pain, and I LOVE the rifle. 

Any advice or suggestions are sincerely appreciated...



Kind Regards,

Charlie

[Shotgun Franklin]

Have a chamber cast done. Sounds like sometime about the chamber ain't right.

[Ghostface Charlie]

Franklin,
Pardon my ignorance...what is a "chamber cast". Do they cast a positive of the chamber & measure it?

Thank You,

Charlie

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[G W Wade]

sorry to hear about your problem.  chamber cast will show you why the brass is seperating-hopefully.  check with brownells again.  i bought one from thema few yearsa ago.  a friend had same problem-gave him extractor when done.  believe was echo brand broken shell extractor..good luck GW

[Abilene]

Charlie, this will tell you about chamber casts:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/barrel-blanks-tools/barrel-chamfering-accessories/cerrosafe-reg-chamber-casting-alloy-prod384.aspx

I agree something must be wrong in the chamber.  Many of us have shot many thousands of rounds through many guns without ever having a case separation.  Have you inspected or measured the empty brass that didn't separate to see if there is a bulge?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Excess headspace?

[Ghostface Charlie]

Gentleman,
I've learned about one new thing (new to me) today..."chamber casting". Let's go for two...what is "excess headspace"? Sounds like what i get when my Girlfriend goes away for a few days...
Best,
Charlie

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The breach of any repeater must have some means of holding the cartridge while the hammer/firing pin bashes it on the behind.  For cases like the .38 Special/357 Magnum, that is the rim.  The rim is made to a specified thickness. Manufacturing tolerances being a slight "more or less" situation, there is a few thou' room to account for varying tolerances of the chamber and the cartridge case.

This is "headspace"

"Excess headspace" is where there is too much of a good thing. It could be poor manufacturing of the firearm or ammo, but it might be because someone fired too many rounds that might be too powerful.  The metal of the firearm gives a bit beyond its tensile strength and suffers stretch.  When a round is fired when there is too much headspace the firing mechanism drives it forward a bit deeper into the chamber.  When the charge fires the walls of the case expand against the chamber walls and stick - just momentarily.  The cases head, in an excess headspace situation, will not be properly supported and be driven back towards the breachface, causing a narrow band of the case where it thins just ahead of the web containing the primer pocket to stretch and eventually break.

To the shooter, a sign to look for short of a separation is primers backing out of the case. Another sign is a shiny ring around the fired case, often coupled with a noticable swell at the same place.

Gunsmiths have "Go-No-Go" guages to check for proper headspace.  The remedy could be quite expensive. If this is the case, and I am only making a quess at a possible cause, it might be time to return the piece.

As I said, this is only a guess as ROSSI is generally a good brand, and the '92 is a strong design.

[JohnsonBarr]

A good 'in the field' broken case extractor I have used: Use a pure lead C&B round ball slightly larger that your rifle bore. I your case a .36 cal. round ball (actually .375 dia.) will work. Drive the round ball in from the muzzle and then use a squib rod to push the rb towards the chamber. The ball will pick up the edge of the broken shell and free it from the chamber.

[G W Wade]

sure love the power of many minds.  wish id hear of the lead slug idea sooner .  thankc.   GW

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Another thing to try in removing the forward part of the stuck case is a cleaning rod with a tighter-than-normal bore-brush.  Like JohnsonBarr says, the brush should catch the edge of the case and push it out.

I've seen military gunsmiths make a stuck case remover from a short bit of drillrod. For .38/.357, 1/4 inch dia. would do. File a bevel on the front with a notch around just below the taper, and then hack-saw it down the middle about 3/4 inch.  Spread the split with a screwdriver or something.  Push it in the chamber until the edge of the split notch catches on the front of the stuck case fragment like a harpoon.  Then push it out from the front with a stiff rod.

[Thumper]

+1 on headspace & shell problem. A friend of mine has a Savage 99 that will only function proprley with one brand of shell, all others (reloads or fresh), stick in the chamber and won't extract.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Try posting this question on the gunsmiths board.  Link back to here.

P.S;  I am not a gunsmith, but have been around.

[Trailrider]

I cannot imaging anyone shooting loads in a Rossi (an M92 Winchester basically) chambered in .357 Magnum, that could stretch the receiver sufficiently to cause excessive headspace sufficient to result in head separations. IMHO, that would leave a couple of other possibilities: 1) a manufacturing error from (a) the rim relief cut being made too deep, resulting in excessive headspace; 2) the barrel being incorrectly installed, again resulting in excess headspace; 3) an incorrectly cut chamber with a bulge or a bulge possibly caused by a squib load followed by shooting the next bullet with the first slug stuck in the barrel just ahead of the chamber; 4) bad ammo, which could happen with the two different brands on a random basis, even though less likely.

As was posted headspace can be measured by gages (Brownell's may have them, or Clymer Manufacturing makes them). I'm not sure of the costs nowadays. A full set comes in "GO", "NO-GO" and "FIELD". Actually the "GO" and "NO-GO" are for gunsmiths to use when setting up a rifle, though the "NO-GO" gives you a conservative measurement of excessive headspace. The "FIELD" gage is the absolute "do not shoot" measurement. I'd order the full set, however. You also need to know HOW to measure with the gages, so you don't get false indications. Without disassembling the rifle, you must hook the rim under the extractor, while holding the gage so it goes into the chamber. BE CAREFUL NOT TO SCORE THE TOP OF THE CHAMBER WITH THE SHARP EDGE OF THE GAGE! The ejector will probably give some pressure against the gage, and it would be best to remove it, but not absolutely necessary if you do it right! Close the lever with as little pressure on it as necessary to press the breechblock against the gage. If the lever does NOT close completely (to the point where it closes when the chamber is empty, then the headspace is NOT closing on the gage.  If the lever closes completely (DO NOT FORCE IT), then the chamber is accepting the gage, which is NOT good with the "NO-GO" or "FIELD" gage.

A chamber casting is made using LOW MELTING POINT CerroSafe bismuth alloy metal. Browning and Dixie Gun Works carry the metal. You run a patch down the barrel until it is just ahead of the chamber. Melt the metal in a double boiler (using a tin can or a pot that your wife won't miss! Form a funnel from some aluminum foil and pour the melted CerroSafe into the chamber When the metal has hardened, punch it out with a cleaning rod. If there is a bulge in the chamber, this may take some force. Such a bulge would show as a scrape on the side where you forced the casting past the normal diameter of the chamber. You can measure the casting about 1/2 hour after hardening to get the exact chamber dimension...the stuff shrinks back slightly to the exact dimensions after this time.

Hope this helps!

[Red Cent]

I once had a hammerless lever action Marlin chambered for 256 Magnum. Third time fired, cases would separate. Headspace. As in excessive. I agree with Sir Charles.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Not to diss Brownells, but I got my cerro safe from roto metals for about 1/2 the cost of brownells.