Sewing Machine Questions

[Bugscuffle]

There are just to many variables to make the call for someone else.  A couple of questions are pertinent  here, are you working with lined holsters and belts very much, do you prefer to sew the bullet loops on?  Are you needing to make a couple of rigs a month or do you need to do that much a day?  Yes there are a few like Chuck or Will who do have the abilities and recognition to make a primary living while still hand sewing but most full time pros are needing to rely on a certain amount of expanded production to make it into the black.  I have used, and cussed, the old BOSS I once had and will tell anyone that it was not even close to the Juki based sewing machines.  I'll go a step further and say that if I had it to do again I would have saved the money spent on Tippmann sewing machines and purchased a quality electric machine much sooner BUT for my needs, the BOSS would be considered far superior to hand sewing.  Just from a physical standpoint, I had reached the end of the line with hand stitching.  The joints in my fingers and knuckles were just not able to perform that task any longer.

Like I said before, I have made exactly two holsters in my life and neither one of them was lined,but I am planning for my next rig to be lined. As of now I'm planning to make a rig (belt and holsters) about one every year. No, I am not going into the business. I have next to no experience in leather work and none at all running a business. Yes, I sewed the bullet loops on the shotgun belt that I made. There are no bullet loops on the full rig that I made. After looking into it for a while and asking expert opinion, I have decided that a machine is NOT in my future unless I win the lottery or Santa brings me one.

[TN Mongo]

Bugscuffle,

I did a decent amount of simple leather in the 1970s and handstitched everything.  I got out of it for decades until I started cowboy action shooting.  Then I started just like you,  just building a rig for myself.  Things kind of snowballed after that.  I'm sure many on this forum have similar stories.

Today I can't imagine not having a power machine.  Start saving your change, because if you stay in this long enough, you'll wind up with a machine, eventually.

I use my old manual powered Tippman Boss as a pre-stitching hole punch for stuff that I don't do on the power machine.  I don't see why someone couldn't take a good leather sewing machine needle and put it in a drill press (that was turned off) and use it as a hole punch.  It might require finding a smaller collet for the needle and then the whole thing could be "chucked-up" in the drill press.

[Ned Buckshot]

I use an awl blade chucked in my drill press, works much better than doing by hand for me.

[Bugscuffle]

I can clearly see the advantage of not using the drill bit. I have plenty of finishing nails and it won't cost me anything at all if I bend one of them. In fact, if the leather is thin enough, I don't even have to turn it on,I can just use the drill press as a punch.

[Cliff Fendley]

I've been using the same finishing nail for probably thousands of holes. I use a small nail in the press then when I sew it's much easier to push the awl and faster because the awl comes out where you want. Helps a lot when you have a welt or very thick leather.

[davemyrick]

Shoot a diamond awl of the proper size cost's less than $10 and is the right tool for the job. Just saying.

Dave

[Cliff Fendley]

As I meant to point out in my previous post I still use a diamond awl to properly size the hole when sewing but using an easy method to do a pilot hole makes all the difference in the world.

My holsters and all knife sheaths are at least three layers of 8-10 oz in the welt areas and many of my knife sheaths are five layers of 8-10 oz leather.

After two surgeries and now suffering again from a pinched nerve in my neck I'm not going to push an awl through thick leather without a pilot hole.

I never bothered since I have plenty of machines around to poke holes with but I have always thought if a person didn't already have a drill press or mill maybe one of the arbor presses from harbor freight could be easily adapted with a diamond awl to punch holes.

[davemyrick]

When I make a western holster, I too will have 3 layers of 8 ounce to push through but what I do is this. I use my wing dividers to mark the stitching line on both edges of the holster and the welt. Then starting at the same edge, layout the stitch locations with the pricking iron. Lastly I use the awl to pierce each layer one at a time, apply the cement to each surface being glued and using a needle or three, line up the stitch holes before clamping them together. Worse case I ever has have to do is run the awl back through a hole or two to realign the holes. I will have to take some photos of some of my work to past so you all can see what I'm talking about.

Dave

[TN Mongo]

Cliff,

The sewing machine needle I use to punch holes has an awl shaped tip.  Might switching to a leather machine needle from your "trusty" nail allow you skip having to use an awl at all?  Just a thought.

[Massive]

I just bought a second hand sewing machine, and I haven't got it set up yet. so I don't know if it will work or not.  I have about 6 machines for leather only one of them actually works at the moment.  Which is less crazy than it sounds.  The machine I just got is a real beast. so I hope it will work for holsters and stuff.

Just the time I am spending getting this thing installed in my loft is not really reasonable. 

But anyway, what I wanted to get to is if you still want a machine, just start looking.  Incredible deals come up, you can make money on some of them.  Some of them are stupid.  Over time you learn a lot.  There are complete nobodies out there who are coming across 10K machines for a few hundred bucks.  Most machines are expensive, but keep looking, and it develops into a thing on its own.

[Slowhand Bob]

The latest holsters I have been making are laminated to app 15oz, when this is doubled, metal liner added and a double thick filler inserted under the trigger guard you have exceeded the sewing capacity of my TORO.  The main seam  has now become a three step process with the last half dozen plus stitches being done by hand, in such a way that the change is not noticeable.   

[Cliff Fendley]

Cliff,

The sewing machine needle I use to punch holes has an awl shaped tip.  Might switching to a leather machine needle from your "trusty" nail allow you skip having to use awl at all?  Just a thought.

The problem I had was when pushing the awl through thick material, say 3 to 5 layers of 8-10 oz leather the needle lifts the material and I have to hold down really hard to the point it was awkward. With the a round nail and the machine running it slips right back out.

I've got a Landis 3 that will run linen thread I just need to get the time to make a couple parts for it and hopefully get it up and
running. It actually works great for punching holes with it's awl. The machine actually sews but there is wear in the needle bar and stand and it skips stitches sometimes.

If the piece doesn't have to be period correct I sew it on my Cobra. If the holster has a toe plug I hand sew the main seam anyway since I have to do the plug by hand.

[ChuckBurrows]

Cliff - check with Campbell -Bosworth they usually have parts for the Landis.

As for the rest IMO there is NO single best method - if it works for you do it..........with 51 years in the trade I've known a few hundred pros and almost to a man (or woman) they had individual ways to do things that other makers would tell you was wrong yet some how it worked. As for ponys a PROPERLY made one - really nothing more than a clam with a good screw lock - is just as good as any English or French clam or horse - and I've used all of them over the years and like myself I know dozens of pros who prefer properly made ponys over all the rest, especially when you get older and broke down like most of us and when you make your living doing it with no other source of income comfort can be a good thing, both for body and production.....

re: drilled or awled - back in the 90's Dusty Johnson did some serious testing and found that generally drilled was in fact stronger.....

hasta luego more maybe later......

[TN Mongo]

The welts on my lined holsters are about an inch thick and I always stitch those by hand. 

Cliff is right about the machine needle sticking in several layers of leather when using it for a hole punch.  When I pre-punch with my Tippman Boss, I punch the holes again every time I add a layer of leather.  I broke a needle and had some awful looking stitching holes the only time I tried to pre punch the holes for a thick welt in one pass.   

I'm only a part time leather guy, but I do know my hands ache and I always have several "battle wounds" after doing a lot of hand stitching.  I'm amazed by you guys that do a high volume of work and hand stitch everything.

[Cliff Fendley]

Chuck, Unfortunately the main parts I need are not available for the landis. They said I would have to replace the needle tree with one from a Campbell which means I have to replace other parts as well as the shuttle which would get expensive. I think I'm going to make or buy a new needle bar and bore and bushing the needle tree, I think that's what you call the part the shuttle rides on. Mostly mill and lathe work just finding the time to do it is my hold back. They said people have done that but they don't advise doing it that way, for the life of me I can't figure out why not, the parts are worn out anyway so what do you have to loose boring it out and making a bushing for the needle bar to ride in? If it ever wore out again you would only have to make another bushing but I can't see that happening in my lifetime.

If you turn it by hand or run it VERY slow it sews but it misses stitches when sewing any speed at all. It has a few other parts that are showing wear but they are available.

In his test do you know if he actually drilled material away with a bit or just drilled or poked a round hole? I can see where a round hole would actually be stronger. Sharp corners are always where something will crack or tear.

[ChuckBurrows]

IIRC he drilled not punched and his findings were written up in the Leathercrafters and Saddlers Journal
http://www.leathercraftersjournal.com/
Give them a shout and see if they have the back issue(s)

One thing with the diamond awl is that when using the "English/Euro" method of hand sewing, which has you make a lock loop with the two threads and you get a sort of slanted looking stitch rather than the more straight stitch when doing it the "American" way as taught by Al Stohlman and others.

Here's a pic of the English/Euro stitch


and a tutorial on how-to
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?19963-Saddle-Stitch-Tutorial-stitching-with-2-needles

compare to the American method I use that also includes the use of an over stitch wheel which the other method (generally) does not...

[Slamfire]

From what i'v been reading,,no one has mentioned" wetting the leather" before attempting to punch the holes, or did i just miss that part???







       hootmix.

[Slowhand Bob]

On the machine I find that damp leather actually seems to grab and lift worse than dry leather, seems counter intuitive to me so go figure?  This even applies to oiled leather for some reason also, I just wait until after the sewing to do any oil applications??  The videos that Chucks boss, Nolan over at WILD ROSE, puts out shows that for some, the knees are often favored over the clamps frequently.  I used a pony for long straight runs and also liked clamping leather for sewn bullet loops but most of the time would pre punch the holes and sit in my favorite recliner for long sewing runs, while simply using my knees to lightly clamp the project.