Spencer Markings

[Slashhavoc]

Howdy,
I have been reading some time on the spencer's and am having trouble with a few markings as my gun has a few, but then misses a few.  It is sleeved, has the stabler cutoff.   It is missing ESA markings and doesn't bear any of the obvious Canadian or Burnside markings.  Perhaps y'all might assist?
I have included some of these markings below on the images, not included is a picture of the end of the magazine tube appears to have a "C" and indiscernible letter underneath that...

Serial # 38243

Any help is greatly appreciated, thank you!

[Herbert]

As these carbines were for the military all parts had to pass imspection,the stamped letters are official sub inspector marks,when the carbine was asembled it would be stamped by one of the full inspectos as ready for service ef ESA on the left of the butt stock in most cases

[Slashhavoc]

Thanks for the reply.  One of my fears is that the gun wasn't real as it missed some of the markings, however, the sub inspector marks could help establish some authenticity.  Are they traceable in any way to learn more about the gun?  Or is this way too detailed information to be kept....?

As I mentioned above, the ESA markings aren't visible nor are any other markings on the receiver.  Any one else's rifle share these characteristics?

[Herbert]

Thes carbines were re finished at Sringfield aromery,this involved polishing the actions so in some cases the adress was polished off or is very faint,the sub inspectors marks are documented to the inspector(I can not look it up now as the refrence is stored away)there is no dought that the carbine is original,the ESA mark can be easily worn of or missing because the stock was replaced,most of thes carbines went straight into storage and were sold off as surplas starting in the 1870,a lot were bought by france and taken by the Prusians as reperation,these were stamped on the barrel and action by the Prusian state in the 1890s and sold off in new or near new condition,they will oftern be found in very good condition,they were all so sold on the demestic market as surplus and found there way all over the world

[Slashhavoc]

Again, thanks for the great info.  What is the chance of success at re-sleeving the barrel?  Based upon my uneducated evaluation, i wouldn't shoot it unless  the bore is cleaned really well or re-sleeved.  I would like to feel what an 1860's carbine felt like to shoot...

Based upon the pictures, any opinions on overall condition of the gun?  Very Poor, Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, etc..??
I saw one member has the Serial numbers list, any idea who the rifle was issued too?

Thanks!

[Two Flints]

I'm the member, and also the Moderator of the Spencer Shooting Society (SSS) with serial # information . . . are you joining my Spencer Shooting Society?  If you are then serial # information will be forthcoming upon hearing from you but you need to Email me at fsgrand2@fairpoint.net with your intentions to join.  I am locking your thread until I hear from you.

I have re-posted larger copies of your original photos below.







Good shooting with your Spencer,

Two Flints
Moderator

[Two Flints]

Hi slashhavoc,

SSS member Herbert indicated you have an original Spencer Carbine. 

Unfortunately, the Spencer serial #s are very incomplete with many gaps in serial numbers between serial #s as listed.  My best "guestimation" for your Spencer Carbine serial # 38243 is that it MAY have been first issued to a member of Company L or M of the 2nd New York Volunteer Cavalry on or about March, 1865.

Hope this helps.  AND thanks for joining SSS

Two Flints

[Slashhavoc]

Again, thanks for the info.  Although it may not be accurate, I still find it fascinating to ponder the possibilities. Any thoughts on re sleeving or ammo availability? Given the age, is it worthwhile to attempt to clean or would I be more likely to damage the gun?

[Two Flints]

Slashahvoc,

Shoot it   You indicated it had been sleeved already.  The Spencer Carbine I fixed up last year was really beat up and now I have it shooting just fine.  If you check the SORI Thread there is lots of info there on loading, and Spencer repairs.

Shoot it

[Jobe Holiday]

Slashahvoc -

I would not re-sleeve it unless the bore is completely rotted out. The reason being that you have a Spencer that was used in the Civil War and then had its life extended by being upgraded at Springfield Armory. It then saw use during the Indian Wars era. If there is original rifling left in the bore you will actually reduce the collectable value by having a modern sleeve installed. There is a fine line between restoration of an antique arm and turning it into something that will be referred to as "...just a shooter."

Just my personal thoughts as a long time collector and shooter.

Jobe

[WCR]

I agree fully with Jobe.
Either it is shootable with some cleaning and general maintenance......................or it is a Civil War and Indian War relic that should be treated as such.
Go slow and easy on cleaning the wood or the metal, the "patina" of 140 years or so is part of the treasure.
If you can send additional pictures of the action and bore there are several SSS members, myself included, that will assist you with determining the overall condition of your carbine.
I have 12 or more military rifles and carbines of the same era, most all of mine were either manufactured or altered by Springfield Armory, and all but 1 have been shot by me, and I could probably shoot that 1, but just don't see the need.
Ammunition should be available from Buffalo Arms (www.bullaloarms.com). That is if the bore is 56-50. It could be a larger bore, but even then there are sources of ammunition.
Many old Springfield Armory rifles and carbines are missing the "ESA" cartouche, which was put there by Erskine S. Allin, Master Armorer from 1865-1879. Anytime a rifle or carbine was repaired in the field, or at an Arsenal other than Springfield Armory, the new stock would not have the cartouche. Many others lost the cartouche with wear, sanding, etc by someone that thought the wood needed refinishing.
WCR

[Slashhavoc]

Sounds good.  I will have a few more pictures up this weekend.  I haven't taken a picture of a bore before, so this might be interesting...

[WCR]

Converting the carbine from rim fire to centerfire by changing out the top breech block will be one of your tasks prior to shooting.

You can determine if the Spencer is a Burnside by looking down the bore and counting the number of lands in the rifling. 3 lands and grooves will be a Burnside, while 6 lands and grooves will be a traditional Spencer. Most of the Spencers that passed through the Springfield Armory for alterations were Burnsides.

WCR

[Herbert]

All Springfield converter carbines will have 3 groove liners brazed in a 22 inch barrel,other conversion features,Stabler cutt off and spring asist extractor fitted to all ,hamer nose rounded of as was the frame opening.These carbines were converted from civil war 56-56 carbines between1866 and 1874,so there service life could be civil war and reconstruction duties as well as frontier service,then converted to 56-50 and put into storage,a large pecentage of these carbines were obtained by France for the Franco-Prussian war,but saw very little use if any,they were taken by the Prussions along with many other arms as war reperation as was the practice at the time and put into storage in new or near new condition untill the 1890s wen they were sold on the surplas market,a lot returened to the US by Bannamans and other were distributed around the world by British traders,a suprising number still turn up in Europe despite a couple of serious wepons confiscations after wars and ocupations as well as some of the harder to find Spencer modles.These Spencer converted carbines would probly have more history atached to them than just about any military arm

[Slashhavoc]

More pics!