Huh? What's with this?

[PJ Hardtack]

On page 15 of the current SASS Appendix 'A' - Range Safety Rules, it states:

"If a particular stage requires a one shot reload, the sixth chamber of percussion revolvers may be charged at the bench and then capped 'on the clock', either before the first round is fired or after the last round is fired."

Huh? Not on our range, you won't! It had better be capped before the first shot.

I've read that some do not believe that chain fires result from the lack of lube over top of the ball (how in hell is a flash gonna get past the ball?) but from the nipple end.
If that is the case, then having an uncapped nipple sets the stage for a 'chain fire', as would a lost cap.

Opinions?

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

On page 15 of the current SASS Appendix 'A' - Range Safety Rules, it states:

"If a particular stage requires a one shot reload, the sixth chamber of percussion revolvers may be charged at the bench and then capped 'on the clock', either before the first round is fired or after the last round is fired."

Huh? Not on our range, you won't! It had better be capped before the first shot.

I've read that some do not believe that chain fires result from the lack of lube over top of the ball (how in hell is a flash gonna get past the ball?) but from the nipple end.
If that is the case, then having an uncapped nipple sets the stage for a 'chain fire', as would a lost cap.

Opinions?

I agree, cap first -  shoot second

[hellgate]

Most RO's understand that the C&Bers prefer to cap the 6th before starting the shooting of the pistol. If they don't then I always argue the safety angle if they don't "get it" and they generally fold and say "whatever" and let you do what you recommend. I will say, I used to do the capping after firing the first 5 and no chainfires plus with a Colt style gun it was easy since the capable nipple came up right when you cock and it was easy to cap at the hammer cutout (in battery) & fire. If they are really insistant (i.e. a dumass) then just stage a spare pistol with one chamber charged and cap, then fire that one. I've so far had cooperative ROs but don't shoot where there may be stubborn ROs.

[PJ Hardtack]

Hellgate

Trouble is, if'n yer wearing both yer cap & ball guns, you ain't gotta spare to stage, n'est-ce pas?

I still have my rule book from sway back (SASS #9854) and it fits into a shirt pocket. I downloaded the current tome and had to put it in a three ring binder in prep for an RO refresher course. There are several things that I need clarified, the one about capping
being among them.
I took a break from SASS when it became apparent that there were more horses (_*_)s amongst the Territorial Governors than horses and only came back for political reasons.
Whenever I've witnessed a debate over the rules, I walk away until the dust settles, but I don't like rules that set someone up for an unsafe act.

[hellgate]

PJ,
Good point. I'm sort of a "whatever..." sorta guy now. I've never gone to any real big national shoots like EOT, Winter Range etc and am not trying to garner a reputation so I can better sell a service or items (although if someone out there wants to sponsor me I'll consider it  ) so I pretty much shoot for the fun and don't really care beyond a friendly rivalry that merely leads to bragging points.

[Noz]

I have been shooting SASS for a while. I average 3 shoots a month and then 5-7 major shoots a year.

I have never a pistol reload in all of those stages fired.

If I were asked, I would load six cap before firing.

And yes the flash over can come from the barrel end of the cylinder.

[PJ Hardtack]

Noz

Yer missin' the point ... it may not happen often, but it's in the rules.

We're lookin' at this from the viewpoint of a cap & ball shooter required to do a one round reload. T'was a time, it was fairly popular, but it's time consuming, so it was gotten away from. And few cap & ballers shoot paper cartidges.

I presume that your opinion re: chain fires igniting from the front of a cylinder is based on actual first hand experience ....   If so, 'splain the physics involved; just how a flash gets past a swadged lead ball to the powder. It couldn't be more sealed if you poured molten lead into it.

Colt used to demo his revolvers by dropping them into a bucket of water capped and loaded with foil and/or skin cartrdges. If water can't get past a lead ball, how does a flash?

[Cemetery]

I've read that some do not believe that chain fires result from the lack of lube over top of the ball (how in hell is a flash gonna get past the ball?) but from the nipple end.

At the NJ State shoot last year, the staff photographer was able to capture the moment the cap went off on a shooter's 1860, I would never have guess that much spark comes from a cap.  Also, at the PA State shoot this year, I seen it with a shooter's Old Army's sparks shooting out, then up and over the cylinder, running under the topstrap and down the face of cylinder.

With all that spark, I'd say to cap the 6th chamber before starting the revolver string.

[HolliferADollar]

A friend of mine has video of a chain fire in a 1851 Navy, from the cap end.  You can see the sparks at the rear of the cylinder igniting the adjacent chamber.  When I watched the video, my reaction was "wow"...when he slowed it down so you could see how it actually started, my reaction was "holy s**t".

The worse part about it relating to this thread is, the spark ignited an adjacent CAPPED cylinder.  The odds of it happening are small, odds of catching it on video even smaller, but if you take the cap off that chamber's nipple, the odds go WAY up.

HAD

[PJ Hardtack]

Thanks, one and all ....

A few witnessed, documented, 'been-there-seen-that' anecdotes beats the hell out of an 'expert' opinion from the 'common knowledge/everyone knows' school. Especially if captured on film.

I will definitely raise the matter at the RO clinic I'll be attending, where several of us will shooting cap & ball in the match to follow.
This will be a 'first' for me, as I've never shot cap & ball and BP in my long guns for a 10 stage match before.

I must be losing what I choose to refer to as my mind .....

[hellgate]

PJ,
You can get flash over from the front end too and ignite the charge. For quite a while chatter had it that the front end was the likely site of chain fire ignition so we were told to "put grease over the ball to soften fouling and prevent chain fires". With no over ball grease a ball cast with voids or wrinkles can let fire by it. Even with the sacred shaved ring of lead you can still get not only "ball creep" but a chain fire too if the ball is loose enough to move it is loose enough to let flame past it. Occasionally a cylinder will have the face machined with a slight shelf along one edge of a chamber(s) mouth and you will get a nice lead ring but the ball is now out of round and can move or let flame past it into the powder. This is why I use both a lube wad with over ball grease and so far, I have never had a  chain fire. I believe I have gotten away with some unsafe methods in the past. You oughta see some of the "grade C" home cast balls I am willing to shoot in CAS matches: wrinkles, voids, slag, inclusions, etc. As long as I get a ding and it doesn't jam the cylinder I'm happy. I hate throwing them back into the pot.

[PJ Hardtack]

Hellgate

I ain't saying it can't happen, I'd just have to see it before believing it. If we don't always get ignition from a cap on a revolver or rifle nipple, trying to ignite powder past a lead ball doesn't sound feasible.

I've yet to see a cap & ball shooter that didn't use lube over the ball. It may not be the total answer for fouling reduction, but it sure as hell helps.

[John Smith]

Help me here, I don't have a lot of experence with C&B revolvers, so I want to make sure I understand this.  You come to the line with the uncapped chamber under the hammer, to cap it , you have to cock the hammer to move the cylinder to the cut out on the recoil shield to cap it.  Now you have a revolver with the hammer cocked over a live "round" as you try and cap the non capped chamber.  Seems to me it would be very easy to break the "170".

[hellgate]

John,
You'd be putting it at HALF cock so the cylinder will turn for lining up the capping. Yes, it is easy to break the 170 but you pretty much are aiming the gun down range while all the capping is going on. For any on the clock reloads I always throw in a Colt model into the shooting box so I have a gun that is easy to cap.

[PJ Hardtack]

You could easily break '170' by doing a one round reload on a brass cartridge revolver .... it's a matter of safe gun handling. That's why the RO is focused on the shooter within arms reach.

I keep forgetting that I've been around this game for a long time and take certain things for granted. I remember during the days of 'one gun' pushing for a full reload on the clock to make it more realistic. I was told that the level of gun handling wasn't there amongst CAS folks and it would be deemed an unsafe act!

Huh? What in hell am I doing on a range with people so inadept that reloading a single action action revolver on the line would be unsafe? I came to CAS as an IPSC 'burnout' when it gave up any pretense of being "Practical". Reloads were something you did automatically in a 'gunfight' scenario. Hell, even movies show guys reloading nowadays.

We needed then (and now) the CAS equivalent of the IPSC 'Black Badge' course. Instead of a 'Black Badge', we could offer a 'White Stetson' as the good guys wore white hats in the movies. But - it's been my experience that you can't tell a male over puberty anything about guns and gun handling without injuring his pride and ego.

What you'd hear is "I've been doin' this all my life and I ain't kilt anyone  - yet ...."

[Roosterman]

I just take a miss when those silly scenarios come up. I don't have a nipple installed in the sixth cylinder anyway. You really can't hurt my time anyway.....

[John Smith]

You could easily break '170' by doing a one round reload on a brass cartridge revolver .... it's a matter of safe gun handling. That's why the RO is focused on the shooter within arms reach.

I keep forgetting that I've been around this game for a long time and take certain things for granted. I remember during the days of 'one gun' pushing for a full reload on the clock to make it more realistic. I was told that the level of gun handling wasn't there amongst CAS folks and it would be deemed an unsafe act!

Huh? What in hell am I doing on a range with people so inadept that reloading a single action action revolver on the line would be unsafe? I came to CAS as an IPSC 'burnout' when it gave up any pretense of being "Practical". Reloads were something you did automatically in a 'gunfight' scenario. Hell, even movies show guys reloading nowadays.

We needed then (and now) the CAS equivalent of the IPSC 'Black Badge' course. Instead of a 'Black Badge', we could offer a 'White Stetson' as the good guys wore white hats in the movies. But - it's been my experience that you can't tell a male over puberty anything about guns and gun handling without injuring his pride and ego.

What you'd hear is "I've been doin' this all my life and I ain't kilt anyone  - yet ...."

That you for your rather condescending reply, at the risk of further disdain, what's an IPSC "black badge"?