Iron Frame Henry vs Gun Metal Bronze

PJ Hardtack · June 04, 2012, 06:01:20 PM

When and why was the change made from the 'iron frame' Henry to the gun metal bronze (brass) frame?

Trailrider · June 04, 2012, 06:30:09 PM

I am unable to find a reference of when the change from iron to gunmetal was made in the Henry rifle, but it couldn't have been very far into production, as only about 12,000 Henry's were produced in total. The reason is that iron was more difficult to machine than gunmetal, and given the technology of the times, iron was more difficult to control quality of the receivers. Gunmetal is more easily worked and machining is much easier than wrought iron. While we tend to think of iron as being stronger than bronze or brass, the strength of both is about equal.

KWK · June 04, 2012, 07:03:43 PM

When: According to Les Quick's book, there was no "change made." Both were produced in limited numbers in 1860 and 1861 (or all were made in 1862, depending on the source). Quick suggests the iron model may have been outsourced, for there are subtle differences in dimensions and contours.

Why: The few references I've come across suggest the bronze was simply strong enough yet easier to machine. Its resistance to corrosion couldn't hurt, either.

Coffinmaker · June 04, 2012, 08:47:17 PM

And ..... There were only 400 and some odd Iron Frame guns manufactured. According to the historical stuff I could find, about 10 years ago, indicated the Iron guns and the "Bronz Gun Metal" guns were produced concurrently and then the Iron gun production just stopped some time in 1862.

Coffinmaker

PJ Hardtack · June 05, 2012, 09:59:40 AM

Thanks one and all!

KWK - I doubt that iron was subject to much corrosion; one of it's virtues compared to steel with a high carbon content. BP does a fine job of discolouring the frames of gun metal bronze firearms.

KWK · June 05, 2012, 10:22:19 PM

PJH, yes, I should have thought through that comment a bit. I've read BP is hard on cartridge brass, and both it and gun metal are copper alloys.

PJ Hardtack · June 06, 2012, 10:10:39 AM

KWK

Yep, BP corrosion will happily eat up brass if not removed ASAP. That's why a lot of folks won't shoot it. The guns clean up with no more work than smokeless requires, but the brass is another matter, each casing needing to be cleaned.

The hygroscopic (absorbing or attracting moisture from the air) effect of BP residue is amazing. When shooting my 45-70 Sharps with BP loads, the cases are damp with moisture when I pick them off the ground. Overnight, they will turn green if conditions are right.

You quickly learn to deprime at the range and drop the cases into a jug of cleaning solution.

matt45 · June 06, 2012, 04:03:37 PM

A question I have re: the iron frames is that both of my refrences (Quick's and Sword's) state a possible reason for the iron framed was for a potential navy contract. Wouldn't gun metal resist salt water corrosion better?

PJ Hardtack · June 06, 2012, 06:25:00 PM

"Old Ironsides" and all the Civil War "ironclads" would fly in the face of that. T'waren't too many ''brass sides'' or "brassclads" that I recall .....

The way that BP residue corrupts Henry and '66 frames, I doubt that it would resist salt water corrosion any better. Colt didn't produce any '51 Navy's with brass frames either.

KWK · June 06, 2012, 08:26:45 PM

The Britannica says one of gun metal's advantages is its resistance to salt water corrosion, and a few sites selling stuff made of it tout this as well. There may be more to BP fouling than just its ability to grab water.

Pettifogger · June 07, 2012, 02:32:17 PM

Quote from: PJ Hardtack on June 06, 2012, 06:25:00 PM
"Old Ironsides" and all the Civil War "ironclads" would fly in the face of that. T'waren't too many ''brass sides'' or "brassclads" that I recall .....

The way that BP residue corrupts Henry and '66 frames, I doubt that it would resist salt water corrosion any better. Colt didn't produce any '51 Navy's with brass frames either.

Old Ironsides (the U.S.S. Constituion) was made out of wood.

PJ Hardtack · June 07, 2012, 07:15:50 PM

I thought she had copper plating below the water line ....

Pettifogger · June 07, 2012, 08:21:34 PM

Yep, copper plating below the water line to help prevent barnacles from damaging the hull. But, no iron armor.

Major 2 · June 08, 2012, 06:06:18 AM

Legend has it, she earn the name in the Naval battle with HMS Guerriere in the War of 1812.
The Brirish ship's cannon had little effect , its cannon balls would bounced off the Constitution's American oak sides,
HMS Guerriere surrendered.

PJ Hardtack · June 08, 2012, 10:31:27 AM

Recently saw a documentary on how she was built - super tough woods used in a new way; high tech of the era.

One of the benefits being that gun crews were not as prone to being shredded by wood fragments during engagements. Ever watch "Master And Commander" with Russel Crowe?

Pettifogger · June 08, 2012, 02:31:22 PM

Quote from: PJ Hardtack on June 08, 2012, 10:31:27 AM
Recently saw a documentary on how she was built - super tough woods used in a new way; high tech of the era.

One of the benefits being that gun crews were not as prone to being shredded by wood fragments during engagements. Ever watch "Master And Commander" with Russel Crowe?

Yeah, I thought it was a great movie. However, it didn't do well enough at the box office to make the sequel.

PJ Hardtack · June 08, 2012, 04:59:45 PM

An American acquaintance owned one of the long boats used in the movie. It was bought from a Russian skipper who was selling off parts of his vessel in order to buy fuel to get home. This was after the collapse of the Soviet Union. He and his crew were more or less stranded.

My pal eventually sold off the boat as it was too large to store and cost prohibitive to trailer about for re-enactments.

Driftwood Johnson · June 22, 2012, 09:05:22 PM

QuoteLegend has it, she earn the name in the Naval battle with HMS Guerriere in the War of 1812.
The Brirish ship's cannon had little effect , its cannon balls would bounced off the Constitution's American oak sides,
HMS Guerriere surrendered.

Well, if the conversation is going to turn to Old Ironsides, having lived near Boston since the mid 1970s, I have to make a few comments. Yes, she got her name because the cannon balls seemed to bounce off her sides. Copper sheathing was commonly installed on ship bottoms in those days, the purpose was to discourage marine borers, not barnacles, from eating the wood. The copper sheathing for Old Ironsides was applied by Paul Revere, who besides being a patriot was a very good metal smith. In these parts those of us who still go to contra dances always enjoy dancing the old dance 'Hull's Victory', written to celebrate Old Ironsides victory over the Guerriere.

http://www.monadnockfolk.org/?p=308#more-308

As far as iron framed Henrys are concerned, Sword's book states that the advent of the Civil War in 1861 gave Oliver Winchester added impetus to begin production of the Henry, which was still in development stages at that time. Winchester poured more money into the project to speed the tooling up process, placing orders for the equipment needed, but it took a long time to procure the needed equipment. Sword speculates that Winchester may have hired an outside firm, perhaps Colt, or perhaps the Arcade Malleable Iron Company to produce frames and iron butt plates.