As long as we are on the subject.......

[Bugscuffle]

A lot of talk on here about additional matches and side matches lately, so I might as well put in my two cents worth. How about this? A match with stages for all three guns, rifle, pistol and shotgun with multiple targets of different sizes at various distances with difficulty values assigned to them. The shooter can shoot any target and earn the points assigned to each target that is hit. The shooter will have a pre-described time limit at each stage to fire his four or ten rounds, depending upon the gun, with no points gained for finishing early and no points gained for hitting a target after the time limit is up. It will add an element of strategy to the match and will truly separate the good shooters from the fast shooters.

[wildman1]

Sounds like fun ta me BS.  WM

[August]

You must get higher quality spotters at your matches than the rest of us get.

The scheme you describe would be great for practice, but very cumbersome to pull off during a match.

My experience is that most guys who win matches by going fast also shoot the match clean. 

Going fast and hitting all the targets IS THE GAME.  These are not opposite issues in CAS in my experience.

Now, getting to the point where you can go fast AND shoot clean takes a lot of time, ammunition, and practice to be sure.   Why develop a game that separates these two essential skills???

You have suggested several ideas over the past few months about ways of weighting scoring to advantage "target" shooters over "action" shooters.  In my experience, these 'adjustments' to the game are very unpopular and can bring down a club in a short time.  That is, people come to do "action" shooting and tend to be disappointed when they are met with "creative" ideas about "new" ways to play the game. 

Target placement takes care of all this on its own.  Please, don't fix what is not broken.

[Tall Dark Slim]

I'd have to go out on a limb here and say that what you are proposing in cowboy threegun bullseye. Where it'd eventually bore the faster more proficient shooters off and then the average and then there was one. I think what makes a good shooting game is the ability to be rewarded for going fast combined with a necessity for speed. Shooters really appreciate the chance to make decisions about how to engage the targets and how to attack the stage.

Examples:
Put a plate rack at a hundred yards and allow twelve shots for six plates to keep the stage going. 
How about poppers that fling clays on another stage? You can't feasibly shoot them with anything but a shotgun.
On another stage you put up fifteen pieces of steel at 15 yards. No long guns allowed.  This teaches folks to reload their pistols.
For another stage you put up thirty pieces of steel: three at ten, seven at fifteen, 15 at twenty and five at 35. You may only reload the shotgun, but shoot the stage anyway you like. Somebody may try to cut the pistol right out of this one.

[Bugscuffle]

August, you are mistaken. Up to this posting I have not suggested any changes to tbe shooting scheme or the targets. You may be thinking of someone else. This was only a suggestion for a side match that would incorporate a little sategy into the shoot, or didn'y you read my post? Yes, we apparently do have better spotters than you do, they actually watch to see what has been hit. The spotter's job could be made easier by using knockdowns and/or by putting clear numbers on the targets and having the shooter call out the target just before shooting. This game would not separate speed and accuracy. Make the allotted time short enough to make it challenging to the shooter to hit all the difficult targets in time. Make some of the targets easy and some difficult to hit. This would introduce the strategy element. I agree that going fast and shooting clean are a very good start to winning matches, but I also believe that shooting a one square foot target at seven yards with a shotgun is not a big challenge.

You must get higher quality spotters at your matches than the rest of us get.

The scheme you describe would be great for practice, but very cumbersome to pull off during a match.

My experience is that most guys who win matches by going fast also shoot the match clean. 

Going fast and hitting all the targets IS THE GAME.  These are not opposite issues in CAS in my experience.

Now, getting to the point where you can go fast AND shoot clean takes a lot of time, ammunition, and practice to be sure.   Why develop a game that separates these two essential skills???

You have suggested several ideas over the past few months about ways of weighting scoring to advantage "target" shooters over "action" shooters.  In my experience, these 'adjustments' to the game are very unpopular and can bring down a club in a short time.  That is, people come to do "action" shooting and tend to be disappointed when they are met with "creative" ideas about "new" ways to play the game.  Target placement takes care of all this on its own.  Please, don't fix what is not broken.

[August]

August, you are mistaken. Up to this posting I have not suggested any changes to tbe shooting scheme or the targets. You may be thinking of someone else. This was only a suggestion for a side match that would incorporate a little sategy into the shoot, or didn'y you read my post? Yes, we apparently do have better spotters than you do, they actually watch to see what has been hit. The spotter's job could be made easier by using knockdowns and/or by putting clear numbers on the targets and having the shooter call out the target just before shooting. This game would not separate speed and accuracy. Make the allotted time short enough to make it challenging to the shooter to hit all the difficult targets in time. Make some of the targets easy and some difficult to hit. This would introduce the strategy element. I agree that going fast and shooting clean are a very good start to winning matches, but I also believe that shooting a one square foot target at seven yards with a shotgun is not a big challenge.

In my business we call that "hugging your hypothesis."  All the best to you.

[Tall Dark Slim]

Fellas it's not that cold outside. Put 'em away before somebody get's his boots wet.

[Camille Eonich]

Shooters really appreciate the chance to make decisions about how to engage the targets and how to attack the stage.

That's not my experience and I have put on many matches.  They want to be told how to engage the targets and they want everyone to shoot it the same way.  Much grumbling ensues once you give them an open stage with too many options.

[Tall Dark Slim]

That's too bad. It's a shame that more people don't appreciate independence in shooting the stage.  I've been on stages where three different plans where run and the times came out the same and you got the feeling of the rush as you shot it and they others shot all wondering who would have been fastest. I had a stage where I ran like a madman to finish quickly and the next shooter took two steps back from the starting position and beat me by three seconds. I gladly shook his hand and laughed at myself.  I believe the discipline fosters the sheep or wolf mentality where the shooter either goes through the motions or finds the best way. I'm going to enjoy myself in CAS and leave the competition in the truck while I shoot. There's too much to learn to rock the boat and it may not all be about shooting.

[Bugscuffle]

Fellas it's not that cold outside. Put 'em away before somebody get's his boots wet.

Not to worry TDS, I was only correcting a misconception about my making multiple suggestions to change the scheme of shooting and to point out that the spotting "difficulties" were not an insurmountable problem. As to the "hugging your hypothesis" goes, I have no idea of what he refers to. But I'm sure that it was well intentioned.

[Two-Step]

And, while we are on the subject....

The US Army uses timed/pop up targets for rifle qualification. The targets are placed at different ranges and each target pops up for a certain amount of time, mainly depending on it's range. While the target is in the "up" position, the shooter engages the target and may use as many shots as necessary, to put the target down... failure to hit the target before it's "up" time is over results in a miss.
A bit of strategy is needed as shooters may use as any rounds as they want, in order to put down a target... but they only have 40 rounds to engage all targets and there are something like 45 target opportunities for the shooter.

This may not directly translate for use to CAS but something like this could be modified to suit the CAS community. Don't bother asking me the cost of something like this because I really don't know. I don't imagine that military surplus pop up range targets would be very cheap though... however, a really smart bunch could probably make something suitable. Some of the "high end" shooting ranges and clubs may already have something like this.

Anyway... it was just an idea.

[Tall Dark Slim]

I think the LaRue pop up targets are something like two grand apiece. Good luck with that. I don't know of many clubs that can afford to throw that kind of cash down. You usually see those targets at high end matches for long range rifle targets. Typically when LaRue Tactical is a sponsor. Try something from MGM targets. It's at least realistically priced. Nevco is good if you're looking for static steel that's cheaper than MGM. Think spring loaded popper. Easy on the reset and wallet.

[TallBaldBellied]

Shot a muzzleloader match what had a 'groundhog' pop-up target that was powered by the PTO of a tractor off a piece of farm machinery.  Willy Boitnot (sp) is the feller what come up with it.  He was old back then.  His son Richard might remember how it was done.  They were rural, but the mailing address was New Carlise, in Ohio.

[Two-Step]

I think the LaRue pop up targets are something like two grand apiece. Good luck with that. I don't know of many clubs that can afford to throw that kind of cash down. You usually see those targets at high end matches for long range rifle targets. Typically when LaRue Tactical is a sponsor. Try something from MGM targets. It's at least realistically priced. Nevco is good if you're looking for static steel that's cheaper than MGM. Think spring loaded popper. Easy on the reset and wallet.

I have several pieces of long pipe and some odd and end materials which I have thought seriously about using to build a track system for a pully operated target. If I get the chance to start working on it I will be sure to post as much detail as possible...Maybe I can figure out how to make the target fall when shot, I don't know yet. Maybe someone else already has built one and would share their details.

[Bugscuffle]

You could hang the target on a finishing nail or a nail with the head cut off. That way when the target is hit, it would pust the target off of the nail and gravity would do it's duty. That would be especially effective if the target was a steel plate.

[Two-Step]

You could hang the target on a finishing nail or a nail with the head cut off. That way when the target is hit, it would pust the target off of the nail and gravity would do it's duty. That would be especially effective if the target was a steel plate.

That does not sound nearly complicated enough. 

[Bugscuffle]

I'm sorry, I don't know what I was thinking.

[Tall Dark Slim]

Have you thought about flash targets? Where a flag is hidden until the bullet hits and then the brightly colored flag shows for a moment over the plate. You'd have to calibrate it to fit your cowboy loads but it wouldn't require reset.