Shooting the Winchester '73 Long Rifle 45LC at 200 yards

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Thought I would post this so some would know-

Read on somebody's post and they said... "Mike Ventura" (spelling) had nothing good to say about Accurate 5744. Well I do not Know Mike Ventura or why he would make a statement to that effect.  Using a Uberti Winchester '73 Long Rifle (30" barrel) shooting at paper 200 yards, rear sight is a Kelley Schuetzen Soule Sight (Short Range), Front Sight is a Kelley Globe Sight which uses Lymon Inserts.  The black circle target measures 7.75" in diameter. I fired 20 rounds from bench using sandbags at local rifle range. The bullet is a 255 grain RNFP setting on top of 17.7 grains of Accurate 5744 with a pinch of cotton to keep the powder next to the primer.  The target shows just how good 5744 is... so regardless of what Mike Ventura may say about 5744 I find it to be a darn good powder. This was just a test to satisfy my curosity... the club I belong to, we do not shoot the pistol caliber rifle beyond 100 yards in LR competition. The test that I did tells me, that using my rifle with that load and the sights that I have mounted, this rifle would be very competitive in a 200 yard long range shoot. For what it is worth...

[King Medallion]

I read alot of / most of Mike Venturino's artical's, and I dont recall having read that he doesn't like 5744, but just the other way around. He uses it quite often to duplicate Black Powder rounds.

[w44wcf]

Tom Horn,
Well done! Excellent! 

Regarding 5744, In Mike's book "Leverguns Of The Old West" in the pistol cartridge rifle calibers, 5744 turned in the worst groups of all the powders, in the loads that he tested. 

Being a traditionalist, he is not a big fan of .45 Colt leverguns because they were never originally chambered for the round.  He did not spend much time testing it and thus did not try 5744 in it as he did the other traditional levergun rounds.

w44wcf

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

KM and w44wcf-

Thanks for the response... do not remember where or whose post I saw that about Mike Ventura "quote" on 5744.  All of my cowboy guns, pistols and rifles are all in 45LC (ease of reloading for me), except for one Winchester '94 (pre-64) in 30-30. The test that I ran on the '73 Long Rifle using 5744 was just to satisfy my curosity...  I have also ran other tests with the 5744 in pistols (but not on paper). I do not know what Mike Ventura's experience was...evidently it was not good...laugh. In our LR competition we shoot the pistols at 50 yard steel targets (steel cowboy silhouettes, small ones small torso with head and hat). I have found that using 5744 to immulate BP loads is fairly accurate. 17.7 grains of 5744 under a 200 grain RNFP bullet shooting from a (Uberti) '58 Remington does well and does not miss if POA is center mass to target. Same load using a 255 grain bullet, same POA the pistol will shoot high and miss the target. BUT if one uses 17.7 grains of 5744 and a 255 RNFP the '58 is dead on at 100 yards. Some day I will test the pistols on paper to see what kind of grouping I get with 5744.  But one thing for certain... with my '73 Long Rifle it does great at the 200 yard range and 100 yard range, very seldom miss unless I the trigger puller screw up. Thanks for the response.

[Ranch 13]

 Who ever told you Mike Venturino didn't like 5744, I sure as the world verify anything else that person told me, and especially before I went out public with it.
I like bludot much better in the 45 colt and it shoots fine to 250 yds out of my Winchester 94 trapper.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

R13-

No one told me, I read it on someone's post (just can't remember who had the post)... it only spurred me to test the 5744 in 45LC. It worked well for me in "the '73 Long Rifle". Everybody has their favorite loads that work good for them in "their" rifles... it does not mean that their loads will work good in someone else's rifle... a shooter has to find what works best for him or her. Some folks in my club when I told them I was shooting 5744 in my '58 Rem (Uberti) and in my Custer 7.5" at the 50 yard targets... kinda laughed at me... till they saw the results.  To each his own... not suggesting folks use the loads that I used... it works for me and my guns... others may not like it... the test with the '73 Long Rifle was to find out how well it would shoot at 200 yards... my gun, my sights, it worked well. As I recall and I may be off a wee bit... 17.7 grains of 5744 with powder down on the primer with cotton filler the round produces around 850-860 MV and that is not hard on the gun. When I shoot it in my Army 60's I back off to 13 to 15 grains of 5744 that works best in the Army 60's... but to each his own...

[Ranch 13]

 I assume you're talking about 58's and 60's with conversion cylinders in them? Otherwise you're sort of shootin on borrowed time
Well what ever flips your skirts but 5744 gets pretty dirty when used in low level loads like that. That's the best thing about bludot and 2400 shoot clean and good velocity out of the handguns, and will jump the velocity about 2-250 fps with the same load traveling down the rifle barrel.

[w44wcf]

"To each his own."  Yes, indeed.

I have worked with a number of different powders in my .45 Colt rifle since I acquired it 16 years ago, and as Don indicated, there are cleaner burning powders than 5744 at 45 colt velocity levels, but if one is happy with the results of their particular recipe, then that's what counts. 

I did find that 5744 gave excellent groups using 250-300 gr cast bullets, but I was using charge weights for increased performance in the low to mid 20 gr. range in my Marlin '94 Cowboy rifle (Not for '73 or '66 Winchester replicas.)

w44wcf

[w44wcf]

Tom Horn,
I would think that if you tried your rifle / ammo combination at longer distances, you would find that accuracy might just hold up fairly well.

Several years ago, I shot some original .45 Colt replication ammunition at 300 meter (330 yards). It was loaded with 40 grs. of b.p. in original U.M.C. .45 Colt head stamped cases and shot very well as this steel Javelina indicates.



Some of the most fun I have had with my pistol cartridge leverguns is shooting them at extended distances.

w44wcf

[Ranch 13]

John have you had a chance to do any xpearmintin with the Eysnford powder yet?

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

R13-
You are correct..'58's and 60's with conversions.  I just used the 5744 as a test... somewhere I had heard that Accurate had developed 5744 to immulate BP loads... so I thought I would experiment with it... I got good results at 200 yards with the '73 long rifle (Uberti), I just threw that in about the pistols using it at the 50 yard targets. I agree, 5744 is a dirty powder and even using cotton to hold the powder next to the primer one still gets powder in the rifle or pistol that does not ignite. I have found that using 5744 in the 45-60 and 45-70 gives good results, but will not argue that 5744 is the best out there.  I get very good results with Trail Boss also. I am not a BP fan...for me I do not like the smell of it or the clean-up...but that is me. I will try the blue dot and 2400 thanks.

W44wcf- That pic showing the Javeline @300 ...good shooting. I have shot the 45-60 and 45-70 up to 300 yards and both did well on paper..someday I will try at longer ranges before my eyesight goes...LOL

Thanks to all for the feedback... happy trails to all of you.

[Ranch 13]

5744 was originally a military surplus powder, and as so often happens with surplus powders folks find they also work quite well with cast bullets
So when the original stocks of XMP 5744 Accurate ran low Accurate set about having another batch built and as it was no longer a surplus powder they dropped the xmp from the label.

[w44wcf]

John have you had a chance to do any xpearmintin with the Eysnford powder yet?

Don,
I will be doing so later this month.

John

[Ranch 13]

Looking forward to seeing what that stuff does for you. Heard from a fella the other day loaded 35 grs of the 3f with a 230 gr bullet in a 45. Got a touch over 1000 fps from a 7 1/2 in model P Said it was a bit uncomfortable to shoot and was going to back that down a touch..

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

R13-

I do not shoot the holy black, BUT... I heard or read it somewhere that the 45LC's were loaded with 40 grains of BP and sittin on top was a 255 grain RNFP bullet.  As stated, I have never shot that load, but I have heard from some BP shooters that is a hefty load to shoot.  One of these days I will forget the smell and clean-up and try the BP in my 7.5 Custer models.

[Ranch 13]

37 grs of goex 35 is about all that will fit in a Winchester 45 colt case, and still leave room to seat a fiber wad under the Remington bulk bullet.
Velocity runs a tad over 900 fps from a 5.5 inch barrel.
To bad no one took the time to show you the proper way to clean bp firearms, it's really not as much fuss as most of the internet experts proclaim it to be.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

R13-

No one had to teach me... I have shot BP in cap and ball... and I do know how to clean them after shooting the BP... I am not one of those who loves the smell of the holy black and with smokeless loads cleanup is much easier than it is with the HB...but that is me... "To each his own".  No disrespect...I just do not care for the holy black. I have shot the holy black in my 45-60 ... I suppose it is ok...I was not impressed with it and the smell of it has not improved since I shot it in my cap and ball 5 to 10 years ago.