2nd Michigan Cavalry, 1860 Spencer Carbine, Serial Numbers ?

[geo69jock]

SRS serial number lists define serial #16574 as assigned to "L" CO of The 2nd Michigan Cavalry Regiment.

A Congressional editon Volume 2875, page 258, April 4, 1864:

700, 1860 Spencers were sent to The 2nd and 4th Michigan Cavalry Regiments.

Another reference suggests that serial #'s as high as 17790, 17796 17817, and 17823 were sent to these Regiments.

Could the "spread" of serial #'s for The Companies of The 2nd Michigan, be from the mid 16000, like 16441 through the 17800, like 17823 ?

[Two Flints]

Hi geo69jock,

If I understand your question correctly - Could the "spread" of serial #'s for The Companies of The 2nd Michigan, be from the mid 16000, like 16441 through the 17800, like 17823? I don't think so as the shipment of Spencers to various Northern units was most irregular and scattered and there doesn't seem to be any special order as to how they were shipped by serial #.  Although this could have happened in some case in lots of 700.  This is just my opinion  

Other SSS members may chime in with their own opinions.

Are you joining the Spencer Shooting Society?  Please let me know.

Two Flints

[JimBob]

A very very short look at one SRS volume gives a much wider spread of numbers than that for the 2nd Michigan.From 15,327 to 19024 and was in one vol. restricted to two pages.

15327  60C  64 Co.L 2nd Mich.

19024     C  64 Co.L 2nd Mich.

[geo69jock]

Two Flints & JimBob:

I have a fine example of a New Model 1859 Sharps Carbine, converted to 50 cal. !  I thought that I would add a Spencer to my collection.   I have the opportunity to buy 1860 Spencer Carbine SN 16594.   "Two Flints", I believe you have already catagorized this carbine, in previous discussions, as being within the SN range of "L" or "M" Company, of The 2nd Michigan Volunteer Cavalry Regiment.
I clearly understand the difficulty of SN analysis, given the sporatic SRS listings.   However, you and "JimBob", (of this correspondence sequence), seem to arrive at opposite conclusions with regard to the "spread" of SN for The 2nd Michigan.   You infer that 16441 to 17823 is too wide, and "JimBob", looking at the same listings, says that the spread extends from 15327 through 19024.
I would like to buy SN 16594.   The potential price is high !   Obviously, whether I become a member of The Spencer Shooting Society or not, depends on whether I have a Spencer, or not !?

With SRS, serial numbers, I know the byword must always be "MAY BE" !   However, can we come to a reasonable conclusion that SN 16584, is a reasonable SN, for "L" or "M" Companies for The 2nd Michigan, given the spreads you both favor.

[JimBob]

The preponderance of numbers favors L Co. given the serial number.Was it absolutely a Spencer issued to the 2nd Michigan,possibly so or maybe not,BUT,if the seller is giving it that provenance without some substantial proof of it being so beyond the SRS books,it's a guess.Is the weapon worth the asking price in the condition it is in or is the price based on an uncertain provenance based on the serial number falling into a group of numbers listed as being issued to a certain unit.I wasn't disagreeing with Two Flints just pointing out that the spread of numbers is pretty large when it comes to making an educated guess on a unit issued to.

[Two Flints]

Hi geo69jock,

According to my SRS book Volume 4, a Spencer Carbine serial # 16574 was issued to a member of Company L 2nd Michigan Volunteer Cavalry in 1864.

The Spencer Carbine YOU WANT TO PURCHASE has a serial # of 16594 and MAY HAVE BEEN ISSUED (MAY HAVE BEEN ISSUED) to the same unit, Company L 2nd Michigan Volunteer Cavalry.

BUT, because of the incomplete and scattered serial #s as listed in the 4 volume set of the SRS books we, I, can only speculate if your Spencer Carbine 16594 was actually issued to the same unit - Company L 2nd Michigan Volunteer Cavalry.  Does the seller have any documentation to show the ownership/unit for the Spencer Carbine you wish to purchase?  If not then the SRS books offer the best?? if speculative answer.

Two Flints

[geo69jock]

Two Flints & JimBob:

Thank you for your analysis.   As always with SRS serial numbers, it is "RISK ON", as they say !   The same problem exists with other weapons, like The 1896 Krag Carbine of Spanish American War era fame.

The price for Spencer SN 16594 is approaching potentially $4K.   It is in wonderful condition, but there is no historical proof of affiliation with The 2nd Michigan Cavalry, other than the SRS, SN 16574 comparative reference.

At $4K, I think the risk is definitely "ON" in this case, particularly with the economy the way it is.

I shall wait to buy, at another time !

Once again, thank you for your help !

[JimBob]

To illustrate the difficulty in trying to give an absolute determination using the SRS books-

Ser.No.16574 issued 1864 Co.L 2nd Mich.Vol.Cav.

The next listed number in that volume,Vol.4 1999 edition,which has the majority of 5 digit Spencer Carbine numbers listed jumps to-

16626 issued 2/1865 Co.E 7th Penn.Vol.Cav.

That leaves a 52 ser.no. gap and a years difference in issuance.The missing 52 carbine serial numbers?


Everyone should also keep in mind that additional serial number data may be available from Springfield Research Service.They publish a quarterly magazine which sometimes has additional data.The most recent SRS book was published in 1999.The current owner has no plans to either reprint or publish any additional books.Currently the only way to obtain serial number information is to be a subscriber to the magazine.Letters confirming issuance of a particular firearm can run from $50 to $250.

[Two Flints]

Hi geo69jock,

This appears to be a nice one!

Hey Fred...just got to your e-mail about our 1860 Spencer.  First of all, it is still available.  As far as we know and can see all parts are present.  The action is very smooth and locks up nicely.
The bore is bright with the exception of a few pits.  The action has been cleaned at some point, but the rest of the metal parts show a normal brown patina.  The sight are all present.  The magazine tube and working parts (follower and spring) are all present and working, however the spring is slightly collapsed keeping the follower from coming completely to the end of the tube.
The stock has been refinished at some point in the past...no cartouches are showing.  Given the age of the piece the only real apologies on the gun are some "hard jaw" marks on the flats on the barrel just ahead of the action, and what appears to be some filler in the forend under the front barrel band directly behind the band retainer.  Hope this gives you the information you're looking for.  Please let me know if you need any other specifics.


PS. If you look at the website photos you can see the abrasions I spoke of on the barrel.

Joe Ellithorpe
www.nwponyexpress.com

http://www.nwponyexpress.com/firearms/antique-firearms/rifles-2/spencer-1860-carbine-56-56/

Two Flints