help with billy the kid rig

[john beattie]

Hello everyone
i would like to try and make the rig worn by billy the kid but i only have one or two photos in a book i have of a copy of the rig and it's hard to make the belt out clearly, it looks like a ranger style belt like the one found in will ghormley's cartridge belt pattern's but im not 100%
i dont know how accurate this reproduction is the book say's it was documented and reproduced by Alan Soellner and his wife Donna.
has anyone got any info they would share with me to help me on my way, wed site's,photos, ect,or can anyone tell me if there is a pattern available from anywhere.
this is one of the photos from the book which is guns of the american west by Dennis Adler. a very nice book it is to if anyone is interested
many thanks
john

[outrider]

If you look closely at the photograph the narritive states that the holsters and gunbelt are a rendition that was made by Aln Stolner at Chisholms Trail Leather...not Will Ghormley.  Is you go to the Chishom trail leather website you can see the photos of this rig.  If I remember the article in Guns of the Wild West correctly...this rig is a rendition that Stolner did off of a photograph of Billy the Kid....so it may or may not be accurate.

[john beattie]

Thank you outrider,
that is a better photo of the chape end of the belt and buckle, ive seen this photo before but could i find it when looking for it earlier.
many thanks for your reply
john

[Curley Cole]

On page 121 and 122 of that same book they show some "enhanced" pix of Billy including one close up of belt and buckle. I think that is about the best look at what he is wearing as you are going to find anywhere.

good luck and lets see pix when you are done\
curley

[will ghormley]

For the most part, Alan does "renditions", not reproductions.  I wouldn't try to base a reproduction of Billy the Kids rig off one of Alan's rigs.  That would be kinda like repeating gossip as Gospel.  Not that there is anything wrong with the quality of Alan's work, but they are "renditions", not reproductions.

Will

[john beattie]

thanks curley and will
i was hoping that there would be a little more info available but had a feeling it was going to be a tricky one.
i'll give it a go and work from the photo and see what i end up with

many thanks
john

[St. George]

In reviewing a blown-up photo of Bonney's gunbelt and holster, I'd say it was a run-of-the-mill hardware store/dry goods store outfit - available pretty much everywhere at the time the photo was taken.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[john beattie]

In reviewing a blown-up photo of Bonney's gunbelt and holster, I'd say it was a run-of-the-mill hardware store/dry goods store outfit - available pretty much everywhere at the time the photo was taken.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

hi
i've noticed that the cartridge loops on the belt by alen are woven not sewn is this somethig that would have been correct on such a belt you have described

john

[outrider]

Yes...woven bullet loops are period correct....if you have a copy of Packin Iron you will see various belts with woven loops

[St. George]

Yes - they're contemporary to the time frame.

Get a copy of Rattenbury's - 'Packing Iron'.

It's all about the gunleather of the Old West, and it's an excellent reference.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[john beattie]

Thanks again guys
yes i have a copy of packing iron and see that there are belts with both woven and sewn loop, i just wasent sure how Stolner made the choice between the two methods from the photo, i think that sewn loop seem to bunch up closer than woven and billy's belt in the photo looks to have a slight space between each loop so i guess that why he made it like that.
i gather from the replys i have had that billy belt and holsters are not sitting in a museum somewhere and are lost in history.

do we know if woven loops come before sewn or if it was just a cheaper/faster way to make cartridge belts or are they both of the same time just two different styles.

john

[outrider]

Difficult question...sewing machines came about around 1850 (some earlier)...so you take it from there  regardless they would have been probably pedal power or belt and pulley driven

[St. George]

One hell of a lot of gun leather originated in manufacturing towns like Chicago and New York.

Those were the suppliers to the dry goods trade and what was available via mail order as well, and that's where all that machine-driven equipment resided.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[john beattie]

Difficult question...sewing machines came about around 1850 (some earlier)...so you take it from there  regardless they would have been probably pedal power or belt and pulley driven

before the sewing machine would they have been hand sewn

[St. George]

Yes - but the industrial sewing machines were in operation long before anyone decided to put cartridge loops onto a belt.

By Bonney's operational time frame - they were in widespread use.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!