Pedersoli Trapdoor question about "Black powder only"

[Doug.38PR]

I opened the manuels and such tha came with the gun and eveyrthing seems to be screaming "Black powder only"

I just put three rounds of factory Remington Express Rifle .45-70 Govt. through it and me and the gun are still in one peice.  The box even says "For Use in All Rifles" 

THe manuel for the Pedersoli says "only factory loads CIP ruled or reloaded with black powder"   Ammunition used should not exceed 18,000 CUP

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=8018.0;wap2

This ^ link however suggests that smokeless is safe in the modern replicas (indeed safer than originals) as long as it is not hot charged .45-70 Magnum.

I've had to told me on here that the Trapdoor can handle more than most give it credit for, I just want to know my limits and be safe though.    Bottom line is this:

The gun will handle anything off the shelf (black or smokeless) as long as it doesn't say "Magnum" on it OR overloaded on the reloading press for "Strong Actions."   Right or wrong?

[SGT John Chapman]

Yes,...Generally speaking if you stay with STANDARD 45-70 ammo your fine,....I pay attention to the pressure/velocity and stay with lead slugs. I keep the velocity clost to the original 45-55-405 rounds....

[pony express]

You'll be fine with regular Winchester/Remington/Federal, etc loads. Some companies make up near magnum level loads, for modern Marlins, Ruger single shots and the like. One of those brands is Buffalo Bore, maybe Cor-Bon also. My Lyman manual has seperate sections for Trapdoor, Lever actions, and Rugers. However, mine is an old one and doesn't list loads for many of the powders that didn't exixt when it was published.

But my favorite load in mine is 55gr 2F, under a 3/8in Circle Fly wad, and a 405 gr bullet from a Lee mould.

[Pitspitr]

I have a pedersoli. I've shot factory, smokeless reloads and BP reloads. As with any load a wise friend of mine has said, "If you want more power than standard loads get a bigger gun."  Well said Ned!

[Niederlander]

I'd suggest you get the latest Lyman loading manual (I think it's the 49th Edition).  It will have all the information you need.  I would personally stick with lead bullets.  They just seem like the "right" bullets to use in these big old cartridges!

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

For what it's worth, my 45-70 Pedersoli Sharps also came with a little red card inside the box saying Black Powder Only. Never use Smokeless it says. I have never fired any Smokeless through it, nor do I have any desire to. But the falling block action of my Sharps is a much stronger design than my Trapdoor, and the barrel is much, much thicker, so I think at least in this instance at least Pedersoli is following the company lawyer's advice and covering their butts. I don't say the same thing about old Colts and such, but I do suspect this is the case with Pedersoli. In short, I would not hesitate to fire moderate Smokeless loads through my Sharps if I wanted to.

Regarding Smokeless Trap Door loads, my 13th Edition Speer manual has three separate categories of Smokeless loads for 45-70. The lowest power loads are the Trap Door loads. Specifically, the loads listed in this section are for "original trapdoor Springfields, modern trapdoor replicas, original Sharps' Model 1874, and rolling block actions." In the text it goes on to further list the cautions about shooting these loads in original Trapdoors, including a thorough inspection by a gunsmith familiar with the actions.

Speer states that current (as of 1998 anyway) factory pressure limits for modern factory 45-70 Smokeless ammunition is 28,000 cup. However the loads in the Trap Door section are kept to a maximum of 21,000 cup. It lists four different bullets in this section, a 350 grain Flat Jacketed Soft Point, a 400 grain Flat Jacketed Soft Point, a 325 grain cast 'cowboy load', and 500 grain cast bullet.

The other two sections for 45-70 in Speer are the 'lever action' loads, and the Bolt Action and Modern Single Shots loads.

The Lever Action loads section specifically states the loads are safe in "newly manufactured Marlin Model 1895 rifles, Browning Model 1886 rifles, replica (not original) Sharps Model 1874 single shots, and original Winchester Model 1886 lever action and Model 1885 single shot rifles know to be in good condition (see text)." The pressure levels of the loads in this section are held to 28,000 cup.

The hot stuff in the Bolt Actions and Modern Single Shot section is specifically ONLY for the Ruger No. 1 and No. 3, the Browning Model 1885 single shot, and M98 Mausers properly converted to 45-70 ammunition". This stuff is held to a maximum of 35,000 cup.

So, I can't imagine why you would want to put Smokeless powder through your new carbine, but at least according to Speer, you should be good with loads up to 21,000 cup. I dunno if I would want to experience that recoil with a carbine though.

As an aside, a number of years ago, before I started loading my own ammo, a friend loaned me a modern Marlin carbine chambered for 45-70, just to fool around with a little bit. I don't remember specifically what the ammo was that I bought to shoot in it, but I can tell you that from the bench it hurt so much that I gave him back his rifle and a whole lot of unshot ammo.