Centaur Niter Blued

[rifle]

I polished and niter blued,with Brownells salts, a Centaur Centennial 1860 Colt Army cylinder and barrel and backstrap. It turned out the very dark bluish I wanted.
The frame and barrel exteriors of this gun were terrible. It had deep tool marks and even broach grooves left in the frame and tool marks galore on the barrel. It's taken man hours of hand work to get the finish of this gun looking as it should. Many hours indeed. In the beginning the action needed work. The barrel set back with the arbor bottomed in the barrel and all that subsequent work associated with that. It shot good but looked terrible.
Anywhoooo.....Brownells describes the finish as,amoung other adjatives ......tough.
What are your opinions of the niter blue Brownells sells and it's subsequent finish as far as durability? I'd suspect the Brownells would be much more durable than the finish Uberti calls Charcoal Bluing since the Brownells contains three different oxidizers. It's not simply a heat blue.

[Fox Creek Kid]

So where are the National Geographic quality photos?  

[rifle]

you know Fox Creek, I do have to set  meself up with a way to post pics. I can't use the NG equipment anymore since they exiled me here in this valley in,"the sticks". Orders to go covert and report the movements of ground hogs and other vermin.
Anywhooooo.....surfice to say thhe parts have that beautiful dark blue/black. Some tiny spots that sorta blennd in too. What makes those I don't know but the parts still look pretty dang nice. Backstrap and cylinder look A-OK.
I made sure to check the temp of the salts closely since I didn't feel like blowing up that day. 

[Raven]

You can get a color very close to the original Charcoal or Carbonia Blue by bringing the salts to about 800 F the parts wil ltake on the correct color at about 750 F. The salts need to be hotter or it takes forever to get the color.
Be sure to let the parts air cool and then rince in hot water or you will get spotsand what looks like the finish peeling. As the parts go up in temp you will get the ordinary heat colors but as you get to the higher temps it will go through a new series of colors. First losing color and then a red to purple to blue with red spots and then blue black.
You will need to have avery high polish as the color will vary with the polish and also it will "Frost" unless mirrior polished.

Raven

[rifle]

Howdy Raven! Thanks for the insight into the nitre blue. Much appreciated. I'll have to get a bigger burner and give it a go. I  thought the  charcoal blue  was at the higher temps like 700-900 degrees. I've done that and liked the result even though it was black. I went over the 700-900 range though since a fire with  wood is hard to control. 
I did what is supposedly the original way it was done with  the parts getting black,as some say the originals were in the beginning in the (cap&baller era). I got a finish that has the parts after over a year not rusting with a thin oil on them that just seems to disappear(3in1 oil) like they have no oil on them most of the time.
One way was to throw the parts on the red coals and periodically take them out and rub a rag with fish oil on it and throw it back on the coals. The other way is to do the same with powdered lime on the rag. I used a cookie sheet with lime in it to put the parts in to  rub the surface with a lime rag.
The fish oil one was jet black and the lime one was a different black Both black though.
I was experimenting  with the charcoal bluing while doing case hardening with the bone and wood chqarcoal and was hanging around the fire pit. I used old leather gloves to sorta handle the hot parts while rubbing on lime or fish oil. Well it isn't good to get lime and fish oil on the gloves and touch oil to the lime or lime to the oil.
Anywhooo.....they say that was the way Colt did it back in the cap&ball era. Throw the parts on red coals and rub with lime or fish oil. It works and makes a finish that seems like the originals. Not super glossy. I guess if the temp was controlled or the parts taken in and out of the red coals not letting them get "red" like mine did a blue black would come out on the parts. Like if it was controlled so the parts stayed around 600 or maybe no higher than 900. Supposedly going to 700 gets a bue black from the coals and ,I figger, the thin layer of lime or fish oil burnt on carbon made the protective part of the finish.
These parts I did show the finish seems real durable and doesn't rust from the protection of the burnt on carbon. I just went too high in temp to get that 700-800(over the heat blue temp) blue black I guess. My parts got red since I was messing with crucibles with case hardening at the same time. Too many irons in the fire at the same time.
Next time I'll take the parts out of the fire sooner and try to not let them go over 800 degrees.  I think it's the burning on of the carbon that really does it possibly even with the nitre bluing at up to 700-800 with 700 beng the best temp. to stick close to. Like the 700 range gives more blue to the black and the 900 range gives an ink black.
I lke the lookpf both the fish oil and the lime charcoal bluing but tend to favor the lime type black.
It mmakes sense to me that Colt may have used the charcoal bluing with the red coals and the lime or fish oil rub since it's forgiving and makes a durable finish and it's ecinimical and not very complicated. It seems the charcoal bluinfg was the father ofi it's offspring the carbonia bluing with the carbonia that was common back in the day and sold at hardware and supply stores. The carbonia containing pine tar wouls be the chid of the ncharcoal bluing since it has to be the "carbon" from an organic substance being burnt onto or into the metal.
Anywhooooo.......with the charcoal bluing with lime it has to be carbon but mixed with calcium or calcium phosphate since limestone is made of  seashell and coral  and then iis used to make powdered lime.
Anywhooooo......those books by  the masters that make the muzzleloaders at Williamsburg Virginia researched  and studied and tested to get what they  figure was a very old finish they found under the patinia of time on old barrels. Moore of a blue grey type finish. The beginning of where the term "bluing" came from. In the beginning the finish being a blue grey(dark gret) from the method of charcoal bluing they used on rifle barrels. In my way of thinking the reason we call black on guns bluing is a carry over of a word that was used to describe the finish that was originally blue.
The books you can buy in about six small volumes has the story of how they came to replicate the really old old charcoal bluing that was lost to time. A long pit.....red coals from clean dried wood in the bottom......sand that's clean.....the barrel .....more sand on top the barrel so it's buried in the sand then more red coals on top then........keep the fire going on top all that for days.
The sand keeps oxygen off the barrels, The fire keeps it hot for days. The wood has to be "dry" so no sap can leach out of it.
Anywhooooooo(again).......the books are "The journal of Historical Arms Making Technology". It''s a cool story about the Williansburg Gunmakers settling on what they reaserched to be an old original charcoal bluing for gun barrels.
I deduce that what Colt used was a fast method modified from the earlier barrel bluing. I can't see Colt doing the old slow(takes days of keeping a steady uniform fire in a pit) method. What Colt used probably was a rendition of the old way that wqas stepped up to be fast. The charcoal bluing Colt did supposedly let air hit the parts and keeping wood sap off the parts from the wood coals didn't matter since they were burning carbon coating onto/into the parts to black them. I kinda believe like F.Brownell (Gunsmith Kinks Book) that the Colt parts were originally black and the light coat of oil made for the "blue" on them. I think they called it bluing as a throw back from the muzzleloader rifle early days when they did in fact have barrels that looked a type of blue grey color.  F. Brownell thinks the original guns were black . I think they were black but.....had a blue hue to them from oilon them or from the charcoal bluing in the red coals where the parts may have gotten hot in the 700-800 drgree range at times. Like the metqal took on a blue that was under the thin burnt on carbon from the organic fish oil or lime powder. The lime having calcium from the limestone made of sea shell and coral must have added some shade of bue grey in the carbon black.
Anywhoooooo.......charcoal being organic would burn carbon onto/into the metal and a reaction of the gases in the charcoal coupled with the fact no air gets in with the parts coulld give that blue hue to the metal when the temps get past the metals heat color blue(about 600) annd reach around 700-800. I've seen parts people made blue by going to 700+ but under 900 where they used some mix of chemicals on the parts. I'd suspect sodium nitrate was the bigger part of the chemicals since it turns metal blue at 900 degrees. Blows up at 1,000 degrees.
Sodium nitrate isn't the only thing that turns metal blue since gun barrels can be turned blue if they are contained in a metal box and buried in fire red coals and the temp of the barrels stays around 700 degrees. They supposedly turn ink black at 900 degrees. That's the red hot coals and the gases in the metal box the parts are in surrounded by clean charcoal. Pure clean charcoal comes in big bags from only one manufaturer I understand.
Anywhooooo......I can see why a blue black could come from the nitre bluing salts when the temp gets past the 600degree range(past the metals heat blue color) into the 800 degree range.......since sodium nitrate turns metal blue all by itself at 900 degrees.
It's all fascinating isn't it? I've read where knowledgeble people say there is no way to turn metal blue except for the 600 degree niter bluing blue. I guess they are wrong.
There is even a rust bluing that turns some metals blue. I've seen it. The regular standard slow rust bluing turns some metals blue. Renditions of the rust blue turns some metals blue. Dicropan IM from Brownells turns some metals blue black.
Anywhooooo....I think in plenty of cases the old Colt charcoal bluing could have turned the metal parts blue/black when the temps of the parts hit the 700-800 degree range. Since the parts were thrown in red hot coals the time the workers took to take them in and out would vary the temps so some could come out blue/black. That's my take on it all right now. I may evolve from here and my opinion may change some though.

[Raven]

Hi Rifle,

All heat bluing is basicaly the same all that really changes is the Medium that the part is heated in A good medium gives more even coloring. Take a look at some of the original finishes on Paterson Colts in the Paterson Colt book by Wilson and LeVett. I am friends with Denny LeVett who has the largest private Paterson collection and have had the privlage of examing his collection closely. The charcoal blue parts vary in color from redish purple to saphire blue... very beautiful! When I blued the parts for Dennis Adlers Paterson project I went for the same look as he asked for historicly correct...I guess he had quite a time convincing the people at America Remembers that this look was correct See the gun on the cover of GOTOW.
A cheap ceramic kiln burner of about 50,000 btu's (about $40) and a bluing tank from Brownells works great. Late 19th century .22 barrels were done this way or at least they look correct done this way. Nitre salts will start to burn off at around 900".
Take a look at some of the photos in my earlier posts, most of my custom work is blued this way. The higher the polish the blacker the color will be.... a 400 polish will be sort of frosted looking and grey/blue. And like Isaid in an earlier post it is very important to let the parts air cool and then emerce in boiling water to remove any salts hardened on the parts.
If you take a look at late 19th century Colts that were Carbonia blued you will find that some look like the finish is peeling ( I think you mentioned this in your post) most likely this is carbon that was "Burnt" onto the finish is is not actually part of the color of the steel.
If you get around to rebluing any original Colts or Winchesters, wait till you run accross one with striations... Looks like wood grain! actually very beautifull but your customer will swear you F#$%ed up their gun. For those who have never heard of striations they are a sign of Hammer Forged Steel....very simuliar to Damasscus.. the steel is stacked, heated to red hot and hammered into one piece. When it is blued it will show it's grain with parrallel lines and curves were it was folded.

"The journal of Historical Arms Making Technology" is a great set of books, I have several but not a complete set. Kinda hard to come by.

Raven

[rifle]

Howdy Raven! Always a pleasure hearing from a Gentleman and a Scholar.
I was looking at a picture of the two original Colt Walkrs yesterday. They had what was left of a bue color to the barrels. Now that I think of it it's the blue of the original Patersons that got me interested in the original finishes.
I'm torn between the blues of the original Patersons and Walkers and the black of the later Colt cap&ballers. Did Colt change methods with the ones after the  first two types revovers? I see blue/black in pics in books but it's hard to tell if it's the camera or not with the camera bring out a blue even when it's not there.
I'm thinking that later with the Dragoons and the Navy's and Army's  that the charcoal bluing was done possibly with the heat blue to the metal that wasn't heated over around 580-600 to burn the black of carbon from the lime or fish oil onto them. That leaving a thin coat of carbon over the blue metal making for the blue/black that is so beautiful to a gun.
Anywhoooo....do you know if the Patersons and the Walkers had the ,supposed, lime/fish oil to the heat blue metal?
I talked to someone that said they were going to do guns in that blue/black carbonia for Colt. Complex finish is all I got out of it. It has to be durable for Colt and S&W to be doing some of that. That pine tar is a part of it I guess.
Anywhoooo.....I figger if I had an oven to control temp and keep it to ,say,580 degrees and if a thin film of carbon would burn on at that temp to give the rust resistant  carbon finish that lets the heat blue of the metal sheen thru I'd have what I want. That to my eye would be an original type finish for the Navy's and Army's that came later.
The fact that metal turns heat blue at approx. 580 degrees and then looses it at higher temp and gets it back with sodium nitrate at 900 degrees is confusing. I've noticed that in different finishes I've read about that sodium nitrate seems to be involved in metal being bluish. If I remember correctly even with rust bluing like in old formulas. I guess that if sodium nitrate starts to burn off at 900 degrees that could mean some reaction involving carbon build  up could change the molecular structure of the surface of the steel to get a bluish to metal even way after the normal heat blue at 580 degrees. A bluish that would be rust resistant and durable. The thing that would bother me would be what that high of a temp would do to soften the metal.
I know there's hot caustic salts bluing that gives metal a bluish to the black. I have a coupla Piettas that have it. The Colt 1860 Army "Old Silver" engraved(stamped on) has a finish that shows a tint of blue.  Traditions sells an Army Colt with white grips that has a "finish" that's "blue" and asking Traditions ,after they conferred with someone, they came back with it was a "finish" and not a heat blue. I've read that the Oxynate no.8  Brownells sells to blue stainless turns regular steal bluish. That's in the "kINKS" books.
Anywhoooo,thanks for the tip on the ceramic burner and the insight to what the original finishes really looked like. I'm going to try that "air cool,wash in boiling water" for the nitre bluing. The high polish? I'll wait to get a buffer wheel. I did to 2,000 grit with sand paper and that takes FOREVER. 

[Claypipe]

Medieval armorers would blacken armor by dipping it in bee's wax and then baking it. Just a thought.

CP

[Professor Marvel]

Medieval armorers would blacken armor by dipping it in bee's wax and then baking it. Just a thought.

CP

Greetings Netizens -

Rifle's burnt fishoil bluing and the baked beeswax sounds remarkably similar to the old blacksmith's finish; we would take the finished piece (filed smooth if the customer desired the extra cost, otherwise hammered smooth) and at "black heat" dip it briefly in a pot of mixed beeswax and lindseed oil. The finish was allowed to sort of "burn in" briefly then excess was wiped off with a rag and the piece allowed to cool slowly. The resultant black finish is where the Blacksmith gets his name; a Whitesmith specializes in items polished bright. The finish is remarkably durable, more so if the work is of proper wrought iron instead of the more rust-prone modern steel.

pray gentlemen, continue on the process of the old blue !

yhs
prof marvel

[Raven]

a Whitesmith specializes in items polished bright.

Traditionaly a Whitesmith was a person who worked tin......Now called a Tinsmith.
A Blacksmith worked in steel or iron it didn't mater if it was blackened or polished white

The guild system had penalties for anyone who worked outside their trade. A Gunsmith (often refered to as a Smith with no type designation) was the only craftsman who coiuld work more than one trade...Blacksmith, Goldsmith, Silversmith, Whitesmith, Woodworker.

Also wierd little thing, but allmost all early germanic Gunsmiths (and the majority in this country were germanic (Pre 1800) saint's name was John.
Jack being a diminutive of John makes me think that the saying "Jack of all trades, Master of none" was an insult toward gunsmiths.

Raven