First CAS Match (& ???'s)

[Grizhicks]

Good Afternoon to All !!!

Shot my first match yesterday; 6 stages as a Frontiersman...  WHAT A BLAST !!!

Only BP shooter there (out of 26 of us), and didn't get too hot until the last 2 stages.

I'm shooting:
Uberti 1860 Armys
Uberti 1866 Winchester in 45 Colt
Husqvarna Model 50 SxS

Only problem was the carrier block on the rifle would not move after the 5th stage.  Only thing I had was water, so squirted a little in, and worked the action good.  Seemed to free everything up.

Spent more time in loading the pistols than anything else, but did seem to get a little faster near the end of the day.

PROBLEM:  I know I didn't get the rifle as clean as I should. And then today, trying to take the side covers off, I stripped the head of the lever screw.  Stopped at that point, want to get a replacement screw before going too far.   Any hints for cleaning the rifle??

Thnks, Grizhicks

[Pulp]

If you can still work the lever, chamber an empty round, work a wet patch up and down the barrel, then eject the empty with the action down, so any excess water will drain out.  You might have to do this several times, until the patch is fairly clean.  Then you can start brushing and patching.  Shouldn't take too long.  If you can get the side plates off, spray the innards with brake cleaner or carb and choke cleaner.  That will dissolve about anything.  Including the finish on your wood, so be careful where you spray.  Then lube everything good with your favorite oil.  I like Ballistol, but other stuff works well.

It sounds like you are getting a lot of blowby into the action of your '73.  You may need to go to a heavier bullet, tighter crimp, or more powder.  The .45 brass is thick and it takes a fair amount of pressure to get it to seal the chamber and keep blowby to a minimum.

[Mako]

...If you can get the side plates off, spray the innards...

...It sounds like you are getting a lot of blowby into the action of your '73... 

Pulp,

I think you missed it, but he has a '66, it's not easy to just pull the side plates an spray it down.  That is really the number one difference for modern shooters who can get either in more or less the same calibers.

The question we need to be asking is what kind of bullets and powder was he using in the rifle.

Grizhicks,
Tell us a bit about your loads first.  What bullets, what kind of lube?  From there we can direct you to some places where you can read about easy cleaning methods for Henry patten rifles shooting BP.  After you get it cleaned and properly lubricated the first time then you can use some fairly simple cleaning steps.

Read these links:


http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,27971.0.html

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,32273.0.html

~Mako

[Pulp]

"Pulp,

I think you missed it, but he has a '66,"

Mako, I think you're right.   Bad case of reading what I thought it should say and not what it said.

[Grizhicks]

Mako  & Pulp -- I was using Goex Black Dawge Cartridges; 235 gr RNFP (my reloading area is not setup, so I had to buy to start).  I've got the barrel and everything I can get to cleaned, but I'm worried about the carrier and anything else under the side plates.  Like I said, I've striped the head of the lever screw, but think I can get it out.  Going to order replacements, but don't want to get the other out until I have a replacement.

Thanks for the links, will go back and reread everything.

Again, THANKS....  Grizhicks

[Cuts Crooked]

Yup! Need a heavier bullet in that .45.

Nuther trick to help cut down on blow back with the .45s is too have your brass annealed. This lets it seal the chamber better. Take a look in the Dark Arts forum for more on .45s and BP.

[Fairshake]

Cuts, I don't know about annealing the necks on those Black Dawg cases. I would not want to be in the same room. Ha!! Ha!! Grizhicks, First secure yourself a set of firearms screw drivers from Brownells as the gun screws are different from automotive type. Don't feel too bad about stripping that screw as it has been done by many. VTI sells a hardened set of screws for all the Italian made guns. You need to buy yourself some Ballistol liquid and spray both. Buy a good commercial spray bottle from Home Depot or Lowe's to use for your MooseMilk. Pour 2oz of Ballistol (8oz can)liquid into the spray bottle,then add 14 0z of tap water to make a pint of moosemilk. Spray the heck out of your rifle without fear of where it goes as the Ballistol is made for metal, wood, leather, and even fixes wounds. You don't have to remove your side plate after each firing. If Black Dawg is using real BP and not Pyrodex then you will be OK. The only way to lessen blow back on any 45 Colt rifle is two things. One is to do as Cuts stated and anneal cases(before loading) and load all the way up to the top of the case to where you have some powder crushing on seating. The next best thing is to make that 45 Colt into a 44-40. Ha!! Ha!! Just playing pard. I welcome you to the Darkside and if I may help please ask.

[Fingers McGee]

Welcome to the Darkside and CAS Grizhicks.  There's lotsa knowledge that frequents this and other BP forums; so, don't be afraid to ask.

Full case, heavy bullet and tight crimp will help cut down on the blowback.  A squirt bottle with moose milk (a 20 to 1 water/balistol mixture) will help keep the elevator free.  Straight Balsitol work equally well.

FM

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Grizhicks,

I know how alone you may feel.  And, I know how much satisfaction you can have seeing your detractors caugh and gag, rub there eyes and generally fuss and fume about your glorious flames and fumes.

Welcome to the Darkside!  You will find many supporters of your chosen powder here.  We are gaining, and ultimately we will win over the heathen fad smokeyless shooters.

DD

[Grizhicks]

THANKS to All !!!

But, now I have even more questions:

What is annealling?  How does it help?  How is it done?  Is it something I can do?

Why the heavier bullets, tighter crimp and more powder? (Just sounds like more crud...)

I have a set of gunsmithing screw drivers, but that lever screw was very shallow.  Will order harden screw from VTI.

I understand the '66 is going to be dirty (esp. w/ the 45 Colt); but it is fun to shoot.

Again, thanks for the help, I'll let you know how things turn out.

-- Grizhicks

[Dick Dastardly]

The heavier bullets resist movement with their higher inertia, thus pressure builds quicker and the brass obturates more fully and this helps seal the chamber.  The PRS Big Lube®LLC 250 grain bullet was specifically designed for 45 Colt ammo and would make a good choice for your rifle.

Annealing brass is a process of heating the neck only to about the depth you seat your bullets.  You heat and then quench the brass quickly in water.  With iron, this hardens the metal but with brass, it softens it.  You don't have to heat the brass to cherry red, just enough to make it sizzle when you quench it.  Your brass will discolor but that's ok.  A small propane torch makes quick work of the heating.  Place the brass in a pan of water, necks up and only about 1/2 submerged.  Heat the brass and tip it over.

The quick pressure build up and softer necked brass will help your gun stay clean in the action.  The Big Lube®LLC bullets will haul plenty of lube to keep the bore fouling soft so that it blows out with each following shot.  Your second and your last shots will encounter the same amount of fouling.  The bullets should be lube/sized to, or 1/1000", over your bore size.  Your actual bore size can be determined by slugging your bore.  Proper fitting bullets will not lead your bore unless it's extremely rough or pitted.

DD

[Mako]

Grizhicks,

Listen to Dick he knows what he's talking about.

In rifles even more so than pistols there is a potential for what we call "blow back" with black powder.  BP is a relatively low pressure propellant and with modern thick walled brass cases which are actually intended for higher pressure smokeless powder loads there is a tendency for certain cartridge types to have a blow back problem.

The original BP cases were copper and then they evolved into low zinc content soft brass as the 19th century progressed (modern cartridge  brass is much stronger).  In addition if you examine 19th century cases you will be struck with the "flimsy" nature of those cases.   If you looked at images online of collectors examples of these 19th century cartridges you will notice a propensity for them to be dented, wrinkled or bent.  I'm speaking of unfired cartridges.  In addition many of the rifle cases, Winchesters in particular had semi-necked designs where the necks were much  thinner than the base of the case.  People who load the .44-40 or .38-40 today know the heartbreak of crumpling a case or two while sizing or bullet seating.  The shoulders on those necked down cases also serve as a gas baffle or constriction point.  

The reason the softness and the thickness of the material is important is that it allows what is in the firearms and engineering world called "obturation."  In simple terms it means blocks gas.  The ability for brass to  expand and then spring back after the pressure has subsided is what allows it to obturate" or block the gas from going backwards along the clearance between the case body and the chamber walls.

Enter not the modern thick brass, and the straight walled case.  The lever guns were never chambered in .45 Colt, that cartridge was a revolver cartridge which doesn't have the same problems with pressure leaking back as the rifle chamber even if it uses the same brass and has the same clearance.  The reason for this is simple it has to do with the fact there is a very efficient pressure relief mechanism inherent to the revolver design, that would be the "cylinder gap."  The .45 Colt bullet travels a very short distance before the bullet is already bridging the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone of the barrel.  There is an small distance the bullet must travel where the base of the bullet has left the .45 Colt case and it clears the cylinder gap.  During this time the pressure is still rising and hasn't peaked, when it finally peaks and the gas continues to expand there is a relief area that s a much easier path for the gas to follow than to go back around the case.

This is not true with the rifle case.  As the pressure builds as the bullet moves down the barrel the gas is seeking any path it can go down.  The bore is blocked by the accelerating bullet and if there is a path back around the case the gas will push through there.  If the case has fully obturated the opening there will be little or no infiltration of the gas back past the neck.  With higher pressure and faster peaking pressure smokeless powders the modern brass case expands at the mouth where it has the structural strength and  seals the chamber.  In the case of a low pressure BP load the mouth may not and often does not seal the chamber.

Cuts and Dick mentioned a heavier bullet, others will advise a full case of powder and a HARD crimp.  I advise all of those as well, because each of those increase the pressure rate and allow the case to obdurate as much as it can before the bullet base leaves the case.  So a 250 grain bullet with a case full of 2F powder and a 1/16" to 1/8" of compression and a hard crimp will make you a much happier shooter.  You will never notice a difference in recoil, you might have a bit more smoke because you will get a more complete burn, BP is very inefficient and has around 50% of the powder not fully combusted.

The other thing you have been advised to do is anneal the mouth area of your case.  If the top third of your .45 Colt case is softer than the base then the case can do its' job.  This allows the strength to be where it need to be.  If you look at modern military cases you can  see where they are annealed.  They don't go to the trouble to cosmetically hide the annealed area.

These are some annealed cases showing the necks and the shoulders in this case as being annealed.  You usually don't see this on loaded commercial cartridges, but sometimes you see it on virgin brass.



Annealing can be very simple and really only needs to be once with your .45 Colt cases.  Brass work hardens, but because of the low pressures of BP and the small amount of stretch, a onetime annealing may be all you need.  You could anneal it again and it won't hurt if you protect the base from too much heat.

All you need to anneal is a pan of water,  a propane torch and something to tip the hot case with.  Place your cases in a pan of water with the top 1/3 to 1/2 of the case exposed and heat it until the mouth glows then tip the case over into the water.  A lot of people only fill to half on a .45 Colt case because they don't want any chance of steaming the water.  Here is a video to show you what it should look like.  Notice he does it in subdued light so you can see the heated colors.  He is doing bottle necked rifle cases but it applies to all cases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=190rC0iTN5M&feature=related

After you anneal them polish them if you wish or leave them alone.  Load them with heavier bullets , a full case of powder and a heavy crimp (ROLL THAT PUPPY!)

Speaking of crimps look at these four .357 cartridges in different states of crimping.

• A  - No crimp, the mouth is slightly "belled"
• B - No crimp, straight wall now
• C - Medium Crimp
• D - Hard Crimp

If you have too much crimp it will begin to look like this:



The case gets crimped beyond the front edge of the rolled section.   In this case raise you bullet seating a bit and back off the crimp ever so slightly.

Well this should get you started .  There are many more people on this forum who can offer their experience as well.

Regards,
Mako

[Grizhicks]

Mako & DD -- THANKS !!!!  And now I'm in information overload; know I will need to re-read several times to understand it all.  But, as in most cases, an answer leads to more questions.

The guy I purchased my rifle from, included the following bullets:  Meister's: 500, 200gr RNFP; 500 250gr RNFP; & 500, 178gr SWC.  Can I use any of these?  Can I use any in my 1860 Armys?  What about 45 ACP?  I really would like to use them up before buying more (but not at the expense of a super dirt rifle).

Again, Thanks !!! -- Grizhicks

[Mako]

Grizhicks,
What kind of lube do the bullets have?  You really need BP lube or you will foul out pretty quickly.  The 250 Grain RNFP are what you need, but you need BP lube.

Dick told you about the 250 PRS, that is your best choice. It's a Big Lube^® bullet that most serious BP CAS shooters use to allow you to run a match without problems like you had.  You can get them from our pard' Springfield Slim here:

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

Sell those 200 grain bullets and the 250 grain bullets to a Heathen Powder shooter at a good price and order from Mark. Use the 178 grain bullets in your .45 ACP.  If you shoot Wild Bunch matches you can try the 200 grainers in your .45 ACP  as well.  If you start shooting bullets with the wrong lube you're going to continue to have the problems you have already had.  BP lube keeps everything soft, the other lube will give you a mess with BP.

The good news it that you can use BP lube all day long in Heathen Powder loads.  That way you can just get one bullet and use it for someone else if they need Smokiless  Loads.

~Mako

[pony express]

In addition to the other suggestions you've gotten here, I always keep a small spray can of ballistol when shooting BP in my '66, spray some on the cartridge carrier every couple of stages.

[w44wcf]

Mako  & Pulp -- I was using Goex Black Dawge Cartridges; 235 gr RNFP (my reloading area is not setup, so I had to buy to start)......

Grizhicks,
Goex Black Dawge Bullets are used in Black Dawge Cartridges and interestingly they do not hold enough lube to keep running in a 24" barrel without "fouling out" with Goex powder after 15 shots or so!!  (Fouling out - hard ring of fouling developing from the muzzle back into the barrel). 

As others have said, the best option is DD's PRS 250 gr bullet.

Here's a pic of two annealed 45 Colt cases. Note how clean the fired case is.

 

w44wcf