Early .45 Colt Headstamps

Niederlander · April 24, 2011, 07:06:53 AM

Hello!
Does anyone know of a source for drawings or pictures of headstamps of early reloadable brass .45 Colt cases? I need something that shows what was available by 1878-1879. I'm doing some research on a rusty dug-up SAA (very early) and this would help me figure out why it was found where it was. Thanks!

River City John · April 24, 2011, 08:59:03 AM

www.oldammo.com/january04.htm

The Cartridge Collector would be worth browsing, Ned.

RCJ

Drydock · April 24, 2011, 09:09:47 AM

http://www.oldammo.com/march08.htm

Dang it!, RCJ beat me to it!

Drydock · April 24, 2011, 09:14:33 AM

Frankford arsenal stamped their relodable copper cases with an "F", the month and year of manufacture. Goverment contract ammo used the same system with a different letter, "B" for UMC, "L" for US Cartridge, "W" for Winchester. Goverment brass cases were not produced until 1888.

Niederlander · April 24, 2011, 11:37:32 AM

These are most definitely brass. If they're commercial my theory is that it was in Indian possession, as it's loaded with only four rounds. My thought is, no soldier would ever load with only four rounds, and if you loaded only four, it's because you only HAD four. Thus the Indian possession theory. I'll check the sites above. Thanks!

JimBob · April 24, 2011, 12:03:42 PM

Winchester first offered reloading tools in 1874.Frankfort Arsenal was producing reloading shells and reloading tool kits by 1883.Most externally primed shells of that period were reloadable,some were Berdan primed some boxer.If you have a readable headstamp could you post what it is?Some manufacturers did not headstamp their casings.I have some boxed Remington shells from that period that are unmarked.

Niederlander · April 24, 2011, 12:10:03 PM

I sort of suspected that might be the case (no pun intended). I'm working at cleaning the rust deposit off of the case under the loading gate so I can see a headstamp, if any. I don't want to mess with anything else due to the possible historical value of the piece. If it's a government cartridge, it would necessarily place the revolver's loss at a later date.

Niederlander · April 24, 2011, 08:18:11 PM

I've been looking at that case head again, and I can see absolutely no evidence of any sort of head stamp. JimBob, could you possibly take a picture of the case head of that Remington ammunition and send it to me? Do you know for sure what year or year range it's from? Thanks!

JimBob · April 25, 2011, 03:42:10 PM

Quote from: Niederlander on April 24, 2011, 08:18:11 PM
I've been looking at that case head again, and I can see absolutely no evidence of any sort of head stamp. JimBob, could you possibly take a picture of the case head of that Remington ammunition and send it to me? Do you know for sure what year or year range it's from? Thanks!

LOL No camera and I'm not adept at how to post pictures.The shells are in a box that by the label is from the late 1870s.They're .40-50 primed casings not .45.I have several misc. unstamped shells in my collection.It is extremelly difficult to ID these types unless you have originall boxed examples to compare them to.If you can get a good picture of the case head you might try the International Ammunition Association forum for a possible ID.

Pitspitr · April 26, 2011, 06:32:08 AM

Have you tried Roye?

Niederlander · April 26, 2011, 05:12:37 PM

I have. He was fixing a tractor. It was the wrong color, too. (Red)

JimBob · April 26, 2011, 06:08:52 PM

In one of the books on recovered shell casings from the Little Big Horn/Greasy Grass battlefield they list some .45 Colt unheadstamped brass casings with brass primers. But there is a possibilty they are later than the battle as numerous found casings were years after the battle.

Niederlander · April 26, 2011, 06:43:44 PM

I hadn't thought of that, but it's probably going to be difficult to prove what date they are. Thanks!

Charles Isaac · April 27, 2011, 10:18:46 PM

What a great find and the story thus far is very intriguing! Was the Colt a 7 1/2"?

Niederlander · April 27, 2011, 10:31:33 PM

Hi, Charles!
Yes, the story thus far is quite interesting. It is a 7 1/2" barrel Colt made in early 1874 by the serial number. It was in Lot 6 shipped by Colt to Springfield Armory in March of 1874. It's looking like it was probably issued to the 2nd or the 7th Cavalry. I've got feelers out right now trying to find information on the cartridges it's still loaded with. By the way, it was found in extreme Northwest Nebraska and it's in really good, rusty dug-up condition. As I said, you can still read the serial number in four different places and it has the government "P" proof mark on the cylinder. I've got a couple of working hypotheses that I'm trying to disprove right now, but I'll keep everyone informed as I find out more.

Drydock · April 28, 2011, 09:24:21 AM

I guess if its allready broke its safe . . .

River City John · April 28, 2011, 05:08:32 PM

I hope the cleaning and all is kept to just the bare minimum so as to keep the 'relic' status as original as possible. If it is privately owned, I hope the owner will consider donation to the most appropriate museum as befits the provenance discovered for it.

RCJ

Niederlander · April 28, 2011, 05:44:44 PM

The only cleaning I'm doing is trying to clean off the one case head visible through the loading port to see if it's military or commercial. That would tell me a lot about when it was lost. There's no way I'd try to clean anything else, as it would mess with it's historical value. Cleaning the case head will tell me something about what the historical value IS. As far as donating it to a museum, I don't think the owner is interested in doing that. He just wants to know the history of the piece.