Colt 2nd Model Richards or Richards Transitional

[Long Johns Wolf]

Howdy to the campfire. I have a question for the initiates. How many of these R2s were made by Colt's during the 1870s? I seem to recall something about only 800 but cannot find the source anymore.
Thanks Long Johns Wolf

[Fox Creek Kid]

Don't have the McDowell book at hand right this moment but if I recall correctly no more than 1,200 max & probably less. Since survival rate is usually 10% to 15% for arms of the period it's rare to see one for sale.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Thanks Fox Creek Kid: I checked the McDowell backwards and forward & did not find a figure. So let's call it "ca. 1000 R2s".
That makes the R2 the rarest of the Hartford factory converted 1860 Armies.
Which might be another explanation why Uberti's marketed the R2 and not the R1...plus it is simpler in the making compared to the R1 because they already had the RM frame assembly with conversion ring and cylinder.
Long Johns Wolf

[rebsr52339]

Even Adler does not give any estimates nor does he quote R.L. Wilson any where. They only say that the Short lived "transitional" ran out the stock on existing "parts" prior to making the Richards-Mason line.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Thanks BKD for going through all these references.
It is amazing that we know so much about the technique and the rational of and for the Thuers, R1s, R2s and RMs but little hard data when it comes to units made.
Long Johns Wolf

[Raven]

Seems to be the nature of History.....We have the artifacts, but very few records survive
And if people of the past were anything like me, I can understand why. I keep my FFL log but that is a very incomplete record of the guns I have made as some (non cartridge) were not required to be logged. Governments are very good at collecting records but very bad at finding the records they collect and paper doesn't survive well!

Raven

[rebsr52339]

I am going on a faulty memory here,(I'm 72 years young) but, I am originally from Connecticut and a former member of the Ct gun guild. I do remember some discussions at some of the Hartford gun shows relating to the records and their disposition at the Colt factory. On the whole I believe they were, so to speak, very well kept up, especially in the late period of the 1800s and especially after 1900. I remember seeing, but not being able to "look" at boxes and boxes and boxes of paper work. Raven is right that if not properly stored paper is very fragile. I think a lot of Colts records were secured but I know not where. Larry (RL Wilson) had a unique position there and was in a position to know where everything was, you know, the dark secrets in the dark closets. Sure wish I was more into it then. Sure have seen a lot.

[Raven]

There is a story about how all the Colt records were distroyed in the fire that burned down the Colt factory during the Civil War.

During a tour of USFA in Connecticut, Tom Donnaly told me that the were not actualy distroyed and that USFA was in possession of them. I don't know if this is true or if he was pulling my leg.

Raven

[Bishop Creek]

As I recall from my reading, many of the early Colt records were destroyed by a fire at Hartford in 1864. But not all, mainly the early 1850s records.

Paper has changed over the years too. Prior to about 1890, all paper was made with cloth rags and those samples have survived very well over the years. I have old 1700s, even 1600s, newspapers and almanacs that are still in near pristine condition. After 1890 they began making inexpensive paper (newsprint, paperback books, etc.) with wood pulp. The cheaper the publication (think dime novels, unknown writers), the more wood pulp used in making the paper=the lower quality of the paper, hence the phrase: "Pulp Fiction."

This lower quality pulp paper yellows and becomes brittle with age. I have a copy of a 1901 newspaper that you can barely handle because it is so brittle and falling apart, yet my original 1770s Revolutionary War newspapers made with rag paper are in great shape and can be handled without fear of tearing or coming apart.

If you want to write something that will last through generations, use rag velum or some other cloth based paper.

[Mako]

There is a story about how all the Colt records were distroyed in the fire that burned down the Colt factory during the Civil War.

During a tour of USFA in Connecticut, Tom Donnaly told me that the were not actualy distroyed and that USFA was in possession of them. I don't know if this is true or if he was pulling my leg.

Raven

He may have some, but they weren't left in the old armory, unless there was something that was missed during the move out (but I doubt it).  A lot of them were tossed out when they moved to West Hartford.  The records meant nothing to them, they were focused on the military rifle program (and not just the first time when they consolidated the rifle line at the Pratt and Whitney site, but the second time as well when they got the contract for the A2s)  and the old records were just that.  Look at how you treat your old records.  Do you keep your 20 year old business files?  The people at Colt's don't have that respect for history that we have, to them it's just a job.

When Leopold Silberstein came in and set up the Penn-Texas Company is when the dis-repect for the old Colt records, archives and even their gun collection began. Silberstein almost destroyed Colt, he was really one of the first corporate raiders that have become common place today.  At that time people and the government had enough of a moral compass to realize how wron Silberstein was and they even passed legislation to stop what is commonly called "capitalism" today.  That is a total misuse of the word, capitalism creates wealth it doesn't destroy it and feast on the carcasses of what it destroys.

I can't even speak the name of Leopold Silberstein or his modern equivalents like Jack Welch without spitting.  Pirates all...

I think a lot of the papers got out to people that have been using them to write their books since the late 1950s and then the next big purging began in 1969 as they moved the military lines and created two divisions in the firearms portion of the company.  As they moved out of Hartford they used the old armory for storage and a lot of old records went into the trash.  Some of the employees saved some and the Colt historians literally grabbed document storage boxes and kept them from the trash.  I believe Martin squirreled a lot of them away and and probably hid them over at Ron's house because they were technically Colt's property even though they were going into dumpsters.  Gary French probably would have fired him if he knew he was taking the unwanted records.

I know in '83 a lot of people just boxed up their offices and took what they had in them in the big lay off.  

Haven't you ever wondered how that writers get their information that no one else seems to have?  A lot of it is hard research, a lot of it is finding the right people who have documents and records that would have otherwise been destroyed.

~Mako

[Raven]

What amazes me is that some well respected(or formerly well respected) historians will publish the same rubish over and over again even when better information becomes available.
Sometimes forensics can debunk old myths but until these historians embrace the forensics all we will get is the same old rubish.

As an example there is clear proof that the 2nd and 3rd model Patersons were serial numbered seperatly. Which makes Sam Colts production numbers very accurate. It seems though that the historians like the story that Colt was not particulurly truthfull. It also makes the survival rate much lower.

Also there are stories that the Paterson charger flask was made in Europe. I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were made in Paterson NJ at the same time as the pistols. The proof has been right in front of our eyes but no one has paid attention.

Raven

[Fox Creek Kid]

Raven, go here:  http://www.coltforum.com/  & set 'em straight then.

[Raven]

Thanks FCK,
I am writing about my research and will work on having it published when finished.

I have been very lucky in being able to examine many Paterson Colts and their accutrements and have made several interesting discoveries (info I offered to several historians before decideing to write about it on my own).

Also researching a book on the inter-marriages and migrations of Swiss/German and Hugonaut gunsmiths...my family

Raven