Some thoughts from a greenhorn

[Patrick Henry Brown]

All,
Let's not over think this, just make it any legal handgun and any legal shotgun.  Just like Working Cowboy, this may not just be a new shooter category, just because that's the way it was conceived.

We only restrict shotguns in one class which is "Pistoleer" with the restriction being 2 shots.  We have never restricted the use a muzzle loading shotgun in any other class, of course it would come with some self-imposed disadvantages.  And I have never heard of anyone wanting to have us change a shooting class just so they can use their muzzle loading shotgun and not take misses.  I have used a single shot shotgun in matches and never expected to have a club change the rules to suit what I was doing.  There will never be a completely level playing field with pumps vs SxS; single action vs double action; solid frame vs break-top; etc. If I want to use a muzzle loader or a single shot, its my choice and I shouldn't expect the organization to make me a specific category.  

I may want to shoot one Cap & Ball revolver, a Spencer Rifle & a single shot shotgun at the same time.  Let's call it the Yuma Kid Catagory.
Yuma

+1

[Cliff Fendley]

I'm all for the efforts being made here and I'm all for the sodbuster (or whatever it becomes called) class but back to the original question of the thread that Bowiemakers asked.

Has anyone considered just a one gun class for beginners? My thinking is there wouldn't be many shoot it but would just having the class attract more people to get started? I can't see many people wanting to just shoot five shots on a stage but I guess there could be some reloads. No doubt one gun is period correct as few people had more than one. Any thoughts?

Sorry if we hijacked your thread Mike, the conversation just led into the sodbuster class as the economical way of getting going.

[bowiemaker]

No problem. This has been an interesting discussion. I think the new class would be good (I like pioneer or settler better than sodbuster). The team proposal sounds even better.

I would rather the choice of guns to be left open as possible. After all, this is about fun so let people choose the guns they like to shoot. If I were to buy a shotgun to qualify for the new class, my first choice would be a SxS coach gun just because I think they are a neat gun would be the most fun to shoot. But, if I could get somethiing else at half the price that would certainly be a consideration at this point.

I think a single gun class (for revolver or rifle) would get a lot more people out to give it a try. A lot of people do have a single revolver or rifle that would be an approved gun and if they could get started with that, there is no reason not to give it a try. I imagine most would pretty quickly get another gun or three so they could do more shooting in other classes but you have to get them there first.

[joec]

No problem. This has been an interesting discussion. I think the new class would be good (I like pioneer or settler better than sodbuster). The team proposal sounds even better.

I would rather the choice of guns to be left open as possible. After all, this is about fun so let people choose the guns they like to shoot. If I were to buy a shotgun to qualify for the new class, my first choice would be a SxS coach gun just because I think they are a neat gun would be the most fun to shoot. But, if I could get somethiing else at half the price that would certainly be a consideration at this point.

I think a single gun class (for revolver or rifle) would get a lot more people out to give it a try. A lot of people do have a single revolver or rifle that would be an approved gun and if they could get started with that, there is no reason not to give it a try. I imagine most would pretty quickly get another gun or three so they could do more shooting in other classes but you have to get them there first.

I have to agree bowiemaker even though I've not shot in a single NCOWS event yet I will. Now I do have the guns including two pistols, rifle and a SxS shot gun, all of which are the cheapest I could find. I happen to be lucky I guess in that I can afford more than others but even so 4 guns plus the cloths can add up very quickly for someone to start out.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Everyman has his passions (or "enthusiasms" as DeNiro said in "The Untouchables").  For some it is motorcycles, for some it is sailboats, for some stamps, for some it is whiskey and fast women.  For us it is the trappings of an gun fighter of the Old West.  Yes, this hobby has it's start up costs.  For some, the start up costs are prohibitive.  One must realize that every hobby will have it's costs.   For fun, go price the basic set up to get into motorcycle touring!   That'll drop your jaw quick. 

Once you "get into" the sport, you will find avenues to acquire things alot cheaper than buying them at the retail level.   You'll figure out who the good local gunsmiths are.  You might pitch in to buy primers in bulk with your club.  If you are looking for a '73, a few quick emails within your club will find you a nice used one quicker than you think.  Trading is also a very common transaction at the local club level.

Don't spend a ton on your first set guns, because if you really like this, they will not be your last or only set of guns . . . trust me.

Regarding new classes:  We need to approach this with some caution.  Even though new, unique classes sound fun, intelligent, and authentic, they do thicken the stew.  One of the "great" aspects of NCOWS's class structure is its simplicity.  Our shooting classes are few and don't require a rule book to figure out.  I enjoy SASS, but I do believe SASS has gotten too many shooting categories.  I have been to monthly SASS matches with 20 to 30 shooters and most folks had zero or one other person in their chosen shooting category.  We don't need to go there.  I don't think we need a system where "everyone's a winner."

If you look around, most monthly level shooting matches in NCOWS host 10 to 25 shooters.   Regionals get 30 to 50 and our National usually hosts 80 to 100.  We don't need 25 shooting classes to host that size of a match.  Heck, even if our National Match drew 500 shooters, I'd still say our class structure works.  Keep It Simple.

These discussions are always fun and sometimes lead to legislative action by our Congress.  I always enjoy the "name that new class" game.  Here's a few I've thrown around or read from other members:

Single firearm:  "Townfolk", "Scrounger"
1 main match revolver + a pocket pistol:  "Pinkerton", "Gambler"
2 main match revolvers + a rifle:  "Range Detective", "Marshall"
2 main match revolvers:  "Pistolero", "Outlaw"
1 rifle + 1 shotgun:  "Sheriff", "Wells Fargo Agent"

[Major 2]

"Don't spend a ton on your first set guns, because if you really like this, they will not be your last or only set of guns . . . trust me"
Truer words have not been posted 


"name that new class" game

here's one 

Chinese Coolie:  one NCOWS approved shovel and one NCOWS approved Pick axe ( no Posthole diggers ) 

[Johnny McCrae]

For fun, go price the basic set up to get into motorcycle touring!   That'll drop your jaw quick.  

That's true enough! You might be looking at $10,000 to $25,000 for a decent used or new touring bike.

"Don't spend a ton on your first set guns, because if you really like this, they will not be your last or only set of guns . . . trust me" Truer words have not been posted

Amen to that! I'm on my fourth set of Pistols and third rifle in five years.

As a result of this fine Sport/Hobby, I've learned to reload my own ammo and make my own leather gear.

[Trap]

  The answer to keeping class #s down (in my Opinion) is to eliminate the age based classes. Except maybe the extremes: like those who should be shooting 22s, Or those over ?70-75? Also eliminate all the hold and powder categiries to two; Traditional and Open.?? Mens- Womens ??  Let the slings and arrows begin.    jt

[Cliff Fendley]

I will have to admit this is one of the cheapest hobby's I've ever been involved with. I used to mud race and then was ate up with truck and tractor pulling for years. I've dumped enough parts on the track in one outing to support a cowboy action shooting hobby for years.

The thing about shooting sports is yes you have the cost of buying your guns and such but unlike motorsports your not wearing them out and tearing them up regularly and guns pretty much hold their value so your really just out your ammo and gas to get there.

[Tascosa Joe]

I promise the guns and toys just keep coming.  Over the years I have acquired enough guns to outfit me or the family to shoot period correct for 1871-1875, 1887, and the 1890's.  The only thing I do not have is a great array of is shotguns.  The only pump I own  is a M-12 my grandfather bought new in 1916.  It has been lots a fun and extremely educational.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

  The answer to keeping class #s down (in my Opinion) is to eliminate the age based classes. Except maybe the extremes: like those who should be shooting 22s, Or those over ?70-75? Also eliminate all the hold and powder categiries to two; Traditional and Open.?? Mens- Womens ??  Let the slings and arrows begin.    jt

I like those thoughts Trap.

"Traditional" = single hand grip w/ black powder (or bp sub)

"Open" = one or two handed grip w/ smokeless or BP

The only "age based" category I'd fight for is a "Youth" class so we can keep encouraging our kids and grandkids to join up.

If you look at the average age of our match participants, "Senor" and "Elder" classes are sort of pointless.  75% of the participants fit in either class.

[joec]

"Don't spend a ton on your first set guns, because if you really like this, they will not be your last or only set of guns . . . trust me"
Truer words have not been posted 


"name that new class" game

here's one 

Chinese Coolie:  one NCOWS approved shovel and one NCOWS approved Pick axe ( no Posthole diggers ) 

Don't forget their cleaver also.  Oh and I have that class covered too. 

[ole plug]

Gents, you may have won me over, I want to be historically accurate, how many cowpokes toted two handguns and two long guns about? Think of the possibilites at different stages, all could join in at whatever level they're at, I for one would prefer historically accurate, make do with what you got, shootout scenarios, consider the  OK Corrall, Doc had a shotgun, no rifles, several mishmash pistols, and a walking cane!!!!!!!!!!!!! Scenarios could easily be written and scored(is it really necessary to compete?) according to each individuals armaments of choice. I have all four, but would enjoy scenarios that required specific items only, let's play cowboy the wat it really was.........................................................

[Will Ketchum]

Ole Plug, I agree.  When I first started shooting NCOWS matches all that was required was 1 revolver, a shotgun and a rifle.  Then became a period that some wanted us to become SASS Jr. We started requiring 2 revolvers.  We still have those classes but have a couple of 2 gun classes.

Years ago it was suggested to me that before anyone goes to the range they decide which 2 gun combination they would use and have to solve every stage problems with those 2 guns,   Now this only works if everyone gives and keeps their word that they won't tell other shooters about the stages.  Also if the people putting the match want to shoot someone who isn't would have to set up the stages.  It sounds as if it might be something Griz would put on.

Will Ketchum