CAS Pistol Zero

[PJ Hardtack]

Where do you guys like your CAS pistols to hit - point of aim, 2" high of POA, 4" high of POA .... ?

As a carry over from my IPSC days, I'm comfortable with holding at 6 on the 'B' zone of the old IPSC 'Item' target (6" square) and hitting it in the centre. That let me get 'A' zone hits with a .45 ACP out as far as 50 yards with a centre hold.

I'm tweaking the front sights of my Remington 44-40 conversions to bring the group centre on one gun and raise the point of impact on the other. Right now they are both impacting at POA at 15 and 25 yards, off hand.
We are going to be doing some longer range shooting in our stages this year, with pistol targets from 25 to 50 yards. Once I don't have to wade knee deep in snow to place a target at 50 yards, I'll be testing to see where the guns impact before doing any more tweaking.
BTW- the front sights on these guns are dovetailed, but as fas as moving them for adjustment - fuggedaboudit! But they are so tall, there is plenty of metal to remove to raise POI and they are easy to bend a hair to centre.

[August]

Absolutely point of aim.

If you have to remember where your sights are set up to shoot for various disciplines, there's no way you're going to go fast while thinking about this.  There's enough to think about during a stage without having to remember the hold over for your front sight.

All guns, one sight picture. (period)

[PJ Hardtack]

August - Thanks for the input, the only comment.
Looks like others really don't have an opinion on the matter ;>) and are content to blast large, close range targets, never printing on paper.
I've got my 44-40 conversions both centred and hitting 2" low at 25 yards - off hand; a tad higher than POA at 15. Since our club is leaning towards a few stages that put a premium on accuracy, it is becoming a matter of interest as to where they print at 25-50 yards.
I designed a stage where ALL rifle and pistol targets are at 25-50 yards. We're getting tired of same old 'blast & dash' at a row of close range targets, a carry over from IPSC and not related to the historical use of firearms in the real world. We're all hunters and like a little practicality in our shooting.
I trudged through knee deep snow yesterday to place a target stand at 50 yards and printed my 44-40s from a sand bag rest. We won't have sand bags in the match, but there will be window sills and door jambs for support.
Pistol #1 put 5 rds into a 4-1/2" x 2-1/2" group right on POA. Good, but not great. Pistol #2 put 5 rds into 3" x 2", but 4" low! Certainly 'minute-of-steel-Cowboy' at 50 yards.
My Colt 'Gold Cup' probably wouldn't do any better. The narrow front sight on the guns made it a real challenge for sight alignment. I'll be shaving a bit more metal off the front sights, a tad at a time. I want to try them with BP first. It's a lot easier to remove it than to put it back on .....

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

PJ;  I adjust my CAS and other field guns for a 6 o'clock hold on a bullseye target at 25 Yards.  About 1.5 to 2 inches above POA.  They are right on for all intents & purposes out to about 35 to 40 yards.  On cowboy action targets I hold just a smidge below centre as most bad hits are high as too much front sight us often used.

[PJ Hardtack]

Sir Charles

Define " ...bullseye hold ..."  ;>) Do you mean 'dead centre' on a bull or holding at 6 o'clock on the bull?

On an 8" black centre bull, I'm very comfortable with a 6 o'clock hold that prints centre at 25 yards. That would be a tad high for my CAS guns, but the targets I'm using at the mo' out to 15 yards are the SFC 20 yd 'Slow Fire Pistol Target' with a black bull that measures 3-3/4" (go figure ... :>) A 6 o'clock hold on that printing dead centre would be ideal.

It's a beautiful day so I'm headed back to the range to confirm at 15-25-50 yards. I couldn't resist working on the front sights a little more yesterday.
BTW - I was once spotting for a BPCR pal that was going to Raton, New Mexico. In addition to putting a tack on the cork sil of the score sheet, I was giving him a verbal indication such as: "low right at 5 o'clock ..."  This went on for a while until he said he didn't understand what I meant! He didn't have the benefit of military rifle coaching and it took a bit for him to envision the target as a clock face. He was thinking in terms as being in the centre of the clock as per: "I've got your six ...."; the difference between the perspective of a 'grunt' and an airman, I guess. I've learned not to take it for granted now.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

PJ;  I mean a 6 o'clock hold on a 20x slowfire bullseye.  

I am adapting the hunters concept of the point-blank hold, where the bullet never rises above 3" high and ends at the range it drops 3" below the line of sight. Visualize shooting through a "6 inch pipe"

For a handgun, its more of a 3 inch pipe after which you need to know your hold-over.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I don't know if I entirely agree with your characterization of most being 'content to blast large, close range targets, never printing on paper.'

With a rifle, I always adjust the sights to hit where I want them to. That often involves installing new sights.

Whenever I have a new pistol I always see where it prints on paper, whether it is a CAS pistol or not. Since most pistol I buy usually have non adjustable sights, it really is not an issue. I long ago stopped filing front sights down on pistols, I just leave them where they are. I know my own tendency is to shoot to the left. I have learned to always aim on the right side of my targets when shooting Cowboy. It isn't very hard to remember that, it does not alter my times at all, but results in less misses.

My latest pistol is a S&W made in 1882. It shoots very high. I have done all I can with my loads to bring the point of impact down. I briefly thought about installing a higher front sight, but since it is a valuable antique, I will probably leave the sights alone and just remember to aim low with it.

But mostly, I think your assumption about 'the historical use of firearms in the real world' is incorrect. Hunting aside, I believe most gunfights have happened from an average distance of about seven feet. I don't mind the occasional target set out a little bit farther for a little bit of fun, but I think the old SASS standard for pistol targets of 16" x 16" set out 7 to 10 yards is fine.

[PJ Hardtack]

Driftwood

I respectfully submit that while you are entitled to your opinion, it is just that - no more or less valid than that of anyone else - ;>)
I wouldn't presume to say that it is "incorrect", historically or otherwise.
Personally, I think that the standard you mention: 16" x 16" at 7-10 yards is a pretty low bar. Some of us expect a higher standard of ourselves and our guns. I learned from years of IPSC shooting that most good defensive pistols are capable of 6" or less groups at 50 yards. CAS guns generally have single action trigger pulls we could only dream of back in the heady days of 'Combat Pistol Shooting' before it degenerated into IPSC Impractical Pistol Shooting.
When scoring in IPSC matches and a shooter's target had less than the required 2 hits, we would ask - "Where was the front sight when you pulled the trigger?" The honest answer generally was - "I haven't the foggiest ...." And these were close range targets, not single draw & fire exercises as 25 yards.
Like you, I would absolutely not mar an original pistol in any way, adjusting my ammo rather than the gun to get it to impact where I want it to. Fortunately the only two antiques I own are a Colt 'Lightning' .38 and a Brit Tranter .450. Both hit where the sights point relative to the target.
But this begs the question: If you are willing to 'hold off' with a handgun, why not with a rifle?
As for 'holding off' in any direction, if that works for you, have at 'er, Pilgrim! I'm a front sight shooter, rifle or pistol, and I like my sights to give an accurate indication of where the bullets will impact.

Where legal, many shooters of heavy calibre pistols like to take game. I don't think it ethical to 'hold off' on a game animal. Just my opionion  ;>)

[Driftwood Johnson]

If you are willing to 'hold off' with a handgun, why not with a rifle?

Because rifle sights are easily adjustable. Pistol sights are not. You have to get the file out if you want to adjust pistol sights, or maybe turn the barrel. I filed down the front sight on my first Vaquero, I just have not bothered again. I shoot to one side with my pistols because I know when I am in a hurry I tend to push the shots to the left. When fired from the bench, they are perfectly centered for windage. I am allowing for my own poor trigger technique.

I have heard complaints about targets being too close since day one in CAS about ten years ago. CAS ain't supposed to be bullseye. It is action shooting. Targets are never too close that one can't miss.

There is something else at work too. The name of the game is making the paying customers happy. A lot of CAS shooters are new to competitive shooting. If they go home at the end of the day and have missed a whole lot of targets, they may get discouraged and not come back again. More hits means more happy shooters.

What's wrong with that?

Put your targets out too far and you may find that you suddenly don't have as many shooters showing up anymore.

[PJ Hardtack]

Driftwood

I've heard the story of targets and stages being too difficult going back to the 70's. The answer then as now is that you want to challenge the better shooters without making it impossible for the 'newbies'.
If you make it easy for the 'newbies', you only make it easier for the better shooters. It's a compromise. Someone has to win and the rest will follow according to their abilities.

The 'race horses' will always push the envelope and trip themselves up; large targets or small.

[Trailrider]

My .44 caliber pistols are sighted in at 25 yds using a center hold on the target, with the top of the front sight about 1/16 in. ABOVE the top of the topstrap.  My loads run around 950 ft/sec with a 213.5 gr. bullet.  I have interchangeable cylinders, .44-40 and .44 Magnum, with the loads in both adjusted to register at the same velocities and the pretty much the same point of impact.  I shoot Duelist, which also has an effect on the recoil, and thus the point of impact.

Your mileage will, no doubt, vary!

[Fairshake]

PJ, You will see if you do any shooting past club level that most revolver targets for SASS matches are 10 yds with some at 5. Sass started to move the targets in and set the maximum ranges very close. Some clubs have rifle targets at 25 yds which means that is the far shot and not the close ones. I shoot at three clubs during the month and only one has any targets at the 50 yard mark which is the maximum set by SASS. It has now evolved to a game of speed with the accuracy part becoming less. The misses come when a shooter over runs his guns and not from poor sight alignment. If your revolver shoots a 6:00 hold at 25 yds it will handle any and all SASS targets. It does not matter if you have a gun and load that will shoot 1 in groups at 25 yds and the guy next up has guns that only will shoot 5 in groups at the same range. If he is faster with all hits he will beat you every time. Oh and they have ladies that fare pretty well also.

[PJ Hardtack]

I think we're coming at this from different perspectives. My SASS # (now defunct) was 9854 and my Canadian WCFSS # was 22. I've been around the corral a while and put a few rounds doenrange. Used to go to Idaho, Montana and Wyoming for matches. ... ;>)
I became disillusioned with the degeneration of CAS into WAS, which I define as IPSC in Cowboy Boots. For me, a heavy calibre pistol will always be regarded as a personal defence weapon. I left IPSC and went to CAS where at the time, .44s and .45s were the rule - one gun, I might add. If you shot a .38, you were looked at somewhat askance.
Then I got busy in life and took a hiatus from the sport. When I came back, it was TWO pistols and the .38 had taken over. I was flabbergasted ;>(   What ever happened to the stock answer to equipment eligibilty - "If John Wayne would use it, it's OK."?

Occasionally I feel the need to carry during bear/berry season around here and it's often one of my .44s or .45s. I NEED to know where that gun prints beyond a doubt, no 'hold over', Kentucky windage or guesswork. Grizzlies are also responding to gun shots, especially sows with cubs. If that isn't your vision of a nightmare, I don't want to know what it is .....  You know that your rifle isn't going to be handy when they show up.

Trailrider - what are your pistols? They sound interesting.

[Driftwood Johnson]

What ever happened to the stock answer to equipment eligibilty - "If John Wayne would use it, it's OK.

Well, let's not forget that most of the time John Wayne was shooting blanks. At least he was in the movies.

As for eligibility, nobody says you can't shoot heavy calibers. I do. 44-40 in rifles and 45 Colt in pistols. Both stuffed full of FFg. Of course I don't stand a chance of winning, but there are much more important things than shooting fast and winning. Like shooting heavy BP loads. What's not fun about that? I couldn't care less where I finish at the end of the match. Hitting all the targets and going for a clean match are what's important to me.

I still think that turning CAS into a marksmanship contest is not the way to go. There are a few clubs around here that tried putting their targets out farther in an effort to 'make things more difficult'. They soon found that they had less shooters showing up. As I said, I don't mind the occasional  target set out a bit farther than the rest. I just don't want to see them all that way. I also don't care for nothing but close up 'stand and deliver' targets. I like to see a mix when I spend my money.

Can't make any comments about grizzly bears, we don't have any where I live.

[rickk]

If there is a way to adjust it, I set mine for center hold at 25 yards.