Saying NO to chainfire!

[Fox Creek Kid]

Actually, on the Centaurs I worked on the problem wasn't the recoil shield.  The problem was the ring on the breech that the ratchet sets into was dimensioned improperly and it was virtually impossible to get a cap on the nipples.  Don't know what they were designed for (maybe an old #9) but no modern cap (CCI, Remington, RWS) would fit.

Well then if that is the case then all bets are off. I have never owned or shot a Centaur and assumed they were as any other clone. Strange. 

[Lucky R. K.]

Actually, on the Centaurs I worked on the problem wasn't the recoil shield.  The problem was the ring on the breech that the ratchet sets into was dimensioned improperly and it was virtually impossible to get a cap on the nipples.  Don't know what they were designed for (maybe an old #9) but no modern cap (CCI, Remington, RWS) would fit.

Pettifogger,

I didn't really know what was causing the problem but I knew that there was not enough clearance for the nipples.  When I lowered the nipple seat the problem went away.  I still shoot the gun occasionally using #11 CCI caps.  The only problem I have is the lack of clearance around the nipples.  The spent caps will bind between the nipple and the shield.

Fox Creek Kid,

I am sorry you didn't buy the story but it was all true.

I would guess you have never seen a Belgium made Colt clone.

Lucky 

[Noz]

"Everybody" knows that chainfires "alway" happen through the nipples.
Garbage!!
I've had 4 multiple discharges. All happened from the front. In each case the extra fired chamber had a live cap sitting on the nipple. Determined that improper alloy and casting flaws allowed spark entry into chamber.

[Pettifogger]

"Everybody" knows that chainfires "alway" happen through the nipples.
Garbage!!
I've had 4 multiple discharges. All happened from the front. In each case the extra fired chamber had a live cap sitting on the nipple. Determined that improper alloy and casting flaws allowed spark entry into chamber.

As previously noted, DON'T use alloyed bullets and DON't trust home casters.  Use pure lead swaged bullets or bullets from a source you are 100% sure is using pure lead.  And obviously, if there are casting flaws don't use them.  If there are casting flaws and the bullets don't fit the chamber correctly, Crisco sure ain't gonna solve that problem.

[Mako]

Pettifogger,

I didn't really know what was causing the problem but I knew that there was not enough clearance for the nipples.  When I lowered the nipple seat the problem went away.  I still shoot the gun occasionally using #11 CCI caps.  The only problem I have is the lack of clearance around the nipples.  The spent caps will bind between the nipple and the shield.

Fox Creek Kid,

I am sorry you didn't buy the story but it was all true.

I would guess you have never seen a Belgium made Colt clone.

Lucky  

R.K.
I don't understand as well.  I am familiar with Centaur revolvers and I have seen the condition that Pettifogger has described.  But what you describe doesn't make any sense.

Could you please look at the following image and tell us what the two dimensions shown are on your revolver?

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/Centaur1860.jpg

You are also using the wrong cap for a clearance issue.  Pretty much everyone knows that CCI caps sit much higher on the cones than Remington caps.  Switch to Remington #11s and you will have more clearance.  Look a the two images below.  The models were created from reverse engineered caps and pistols.  I used Original Colt's pistols and Ubertis to create the models.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/CCI11.jpg

CCI Cap is too close to the recoil shield

 http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/RemingtonCap.jpg

Remington Cap gives you more clearance to the recoil shield

Note the clearance difference, you can see it even by eye.  The CCI is on top and the Remington is on the bottom.

And lastly, this is what Pettifogger was talking about.  The Cylinder Bearing surface on the frame is a ring.  On some pistols it is larger in diameter than others.  I have never seen it on a Centaur, but I have seen it on a Euroarms and an ASM.  I have also heard reports of it on a Gen. 2 Colt (which would have been parts from Uberti).  Having said that about the Gen 2, I have never seen it on a Uberti and I have looked a many of them.   I am a little bit dubious about that report as well.  The corner of the  ring gets too close to the cap and it actually hits or binds on the the corner.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/CylinderBearingClearance.jpg

Now, what the Fox Creek Kid was dubious about is how you would have enough end shake to actually get any crush on the cap which is necessary for detonation.  I have the same question, your cylinder would have to shake back and forth like a rattle for it to have enough moment to set off a cap.


Let's us know what those dimensions are, and while you're at it give us that bearing ring diameter.

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

"Everybody" knows that chainfires "alway" happen through the nipples.
Garbage!!
I've had 4 multiple discharges. All happened from the front. In each case the extra fired chamber had a live cap sitting on the nipple. Determined that improper alloy and casting flaws allowed spark entry into chamber.

Noz,
I've heard reports of live caps but I can't get my head wrapped around how it could happen.  I think we all agree a very large amount of hot gasses flows back up through the flash hole every time you fire.  I know you have seen the high speed photos of a percussion pistol firing sequence.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap%20N%20Ball%20Questions/1860sequence-1.jpg

Arthur Tobias really shows exactly what happens during the firing sequence.  So we could even stipulate that frames 1 through 3 are just the priming compound, but is frames 4 and 5 (mainly 4) it is obviously hot gas being forced back through the flash hole that is creating that billowing cloud against the recoil shield.

There are more frames and this one takes place after the 5th one above, note the sparks that are literally shooting backwards through the hammer slot and around the sides of the hammer.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap%20N%20Ball%20Questions/44backblast-1.jpg

I have one last question, how do you know the caps were unfired?

Your friend,
Mako

[Lucky R. K.]

As I said in a previous post, "I am not into pretty pictures and I do not quote mathematical formulas".  I did point out a problem I was having with my Cenatur and I stated how I resolved the problem to my satisfaction.  If that should help anyone with a similar problem I amj glad. Other than that, I have nothing to add.

Lucky 

[Mako]

As I said in a previous post, "I am not into pretty pictures and I do not quote mathematical formulas".  I did point out a problem I was having with my Cenatur and I stated how I resolved the problem to my satisfaction.  If that should help anyone with a similar problem I amj glad. Other than that, I have nothing to add.

Lucky 

R.K.
There is neither "purty" pictures or mathematics involved.  Get out your caliper and measure it.

If you can move the "seating face" for the cone back a "few thousandths" then you should be capable of providing two (make that 3) very simple measurements.  I have gone to the trouble to show you exactly what dimensions we want to have reported.

Regards,
Mako

[Dick Dastardly]

Those photos graphically show why I made the statement that properly lube/sized Big Lube®LLC effectively prevent chain fire from the FRONT of the cylinder.  If a cap falls off from a charged chamber or a cap doesn't properly seal the nipple for a chamber, that firestorm MAY indeed discharge that chamber in what is termed a chain fire or cross fire.

The fact that we very seldom, if ever, record a chain fire with cartridge guns bears out the fact that they can't be discharged out of battery from the back or the front end.  The front is sealed very well by the lube/sized bullet and the back end is sealed with a well fitting primer.  In fact, I many times shoot the SAME Big Lube®LLC lube/sized bullets loaded in either Cowboy 45 Special or 45 Colt brass from my 45 Caliber Ruger Old Armies and have absolutely NO worries about chain fire.  Same bullets, same powder, same flames but no worries about chain fire discharges.  Since I make sure to use only well fitting caps and properly lube/sized BL bullets, I have virtually the same non-concern about chain fire when shooting C&B.

Ask yourself, how many chain fires do you hear of with cartridge firing guns shooting black powder?

DD-DLoS

[rifle]

When Colts get loose they tend to do a self destruct  annd get looser faster and faster. That peens the ring on the recoil shield back in six places and that lets the cylinder come back closer to the frame and...that can get to a degree where the caps can hit the frame and chainfire. That ring the cylinder hits is there to keep the capps off thenframe sothey don't chainfire.
I've fixed Centaurs 1860 Army Colts that did that and needed......the ring leveled off,the cones on the nipples shortened and reshaped and sometims the hammer nose welded and shaped and rehardened.
Chainfires can happen from the front and unspent caps can be left at the rear after a chainfire. Only thing I figure is the heat back thru the nipple isn't long enough to ignite the caps and  the caps are more sensitive to impact than a very short blast of heat.
Naturally if a gun is loaded right with soft lead the chambers at the front seal. It's when the gun is loaded improperly is when the chainfire can haqppen. Casting flaws in the bals can leave a tiny space. A flaw in the chamber,rust pit,out of round, chamber gets more diameter down in compared to  the opening of the hole( I've seen and fixed one like that).
Sam Colt demonstrated back in the day that a Colt loaded properly was water proof and chainfire proof. The key words are,"loaded properly" and inferred would be the gun is made right to begin with.
People gomback and forth debating chainfire from the front or the back all the time. Must be fun.  I'm hear at the late stage of the game with so many cap&ballers fixed under my belt I can't guess at the number. I have to say that chainfire can happen to a gun from either end of the chamber. Take it from a Cap&Baller wise old man(not wise about anything else ) that chain fire happens from each end.

[Noz]

Noz,
I've heard reports of live caps but I can't get my head wrapped around how it could happen.  I think we all agree a very large amount of hot gasses flows back up through the flash hole every time you fire.  I know you have seen the high speed photos of a percussion pistol firing sequence.



Arthur Tobias really shows exactly what happens during the firing sequence.  So we could even stipulate that frames 1 through 3 are just the priming compound, but is frames 4 and 5 (mainly 4) it is obviously hot gas being forced back through the flash hole that is creating that billowing cloud against the recoil shield.

There are more frames and this one takes place after the 5th one above, note the sparks that are literally shooting backwards through the hammer slot and around the sides of the hammer.



I have one last question, how do you know the caps were unfired?

Your friend,
Mako

In the presence of witnesses I pulled the trigger and the caps fired. How they could stay on when the cylinder fired is beyond me but the fact is that they did. It was always the cylinder to the left of the one being intentionally fired.

After looking at this series of pictures, how in the world do we ever get a second, third, fourth and fifth aimed shot fired?

[ZVP]

 Well this ended up being a very intresting thread!
Most of my BP revolvers are Piettias one is an Uberti.
I use swaged pure lead balls, a lubed frlt wad over the powder and under the ball  and reming #11 caps, so I guess I'd better switch to #10 caps to fully prevent chainfires. It just seems like the Piettia Nipples take to the #11 caps easier as the 10's really need to be pushed on?
I want to avoid any dangers while enjoying my revolvers so I do all that is possible to make it safe.
I load 22 grainsof FFF in my Uberti .36 London.
I load 20 grains of FFF in my Brass frame Piettia .44 Navy.
I load 30 Granis FFF in myPiettia Remingtons.
Each load is the most accurate in the revolvers plus they are not maximum loads.
I try and be carefull to not overload by using an individual powder measure of each chamber.
The patches I use are from Cabela's. I often use Crisco over the balls when I don't have any Wads or when I want to add a little lubrication to the revolvers. I have noticed that filling the chambers is a lot of grease and it gets all over the gun even in places where it IS wanted. So it's been said to just cover the balls? I will try this.
DON'T WANT NO CHAINFIRES!
Lots of good advice in this string!
ZVP

[Montana Slim]

Another of Slim's Secret's revealed....
I keep a tip from a common Bic ballpoint pen (stick-type) in my shooting kit.
I use the thin end to help clear cap fragements & such, while I can use the rounded tip to smear lube over the balls if needed. It's unlikely to damage your gun's finish or hurt you either if it slips.
And, I don't stress over losing this item, like I do with my rare straight-line capper.

Slim

[Noz]

Noz,
Sounds reasonable, his argument is legitimate.  In all that I have experienced and deduced after sifting through the after incident stories I have to agree with him on the safety aspect. 

I simply use the wads to keep things soft and provide that little bit of lube to the arbor/cylinder interface.  If I was shooting an ROA I might go that path just to keep my hands cleaner, but shooting my '60s I need every advantage I can get.  Keep me posted on what your experience is.

~Mako

I shot my first match with the naked ball over powder idea.

First stage: No problems, guns acted as normal.
Second stage: Guns fired properly, already seeing a small amount of drag between cylinder and barrel.
Stage three: Guns fired properly, no increase in drag but balls are very hard to load for stage 4. Loaded left pistol with no wad, right pistol with wads. Right pistol was easier to load.
Stage 4: Guns operated as before, decided I was putting a lot more strain on the guns loading with out wads. Both guns loaded with wads.
Stage 5: Guns functioned normally, decrease in drag from previous stage.

Conclusion from a very short test period. I will continue to load with a homemade lubricated wad between powder and ball. Not as a multiple discharge defense but as an aid to easy loading.  Frankly I was surprised at the difference the wads made in keeping the cylinder turning easily and allowing the ball to be seated easily. The amount of lube delivered is not visible but is certainly effective.

Previous experience has shown that I can shoot 12 stages with the lubed wads with no cleaning required.

This experiment would indicate that I could not do so without the wads.

[Mason Stillwell]

Noz I use the over the ball lube that I make for helping in the next loading. It really does make it easer to load the next round and keep the cylinder turning more freely.

Mason