Charging from flask or measure?

[Noz]

I load on the gun.  I charge a chamber(from a flask) and place a wad. After I have done 5, I place a rb on each wad.  I don't have a dedicated open cylinder. Which ever one is one ahesd of the rammer is where I start.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

My flask really looks much grungier than this ,the light was too bright when I took the photo. I too had to go hunting to find it, I hadn't used it in years. Started using it again with my 1860 Armies last year.

By the way, be sure to empty your flask when you are done using it. Mine sat with some FFg inside for about twenty years, and boy does BP attract moisture from the air. It was a real mess inside.



To answer the original question, conventional wisdom was always not to load straight from the flask, in case there was a burning ember still down inside the bore. This could flash to the flask and blow the whole thing up in your hands. Definitely not a good thing with a half pound or so of powder in the flask.

However, when we shoot cowboy, by the time you visit the unloading table, then walk to your cart, then wait until it is time to shoot again at the next stage, probably about an hour will have gone by. There ain't gonna be any burning embers left down in the chambers after an hour.

[Mako]

Howdy
.....
However, when we shoot cowboy, by the time you visit the unloading table, then walk to your cart, then wait until it is time to shoot again at the next stage, probably about an hour will have gone by. There ain't gonna be any burning embers left down in the chambers after an hour.

WOW! an hour per stage?  Do you have over 30 people per posse?  If you shoot an 8 stage match you won't be finished until 5pm.

One club I shoot with has lately been crowding 20 plus into posses and it ends up taking over four and a half hours to finish a 6 stage match.  I hate it when we get more than 15 per posse because it takes too long. When we have 45 people they need to make it three or even four posses instead of two.

in my humble opinion 12 is the ideal number for a Posse. That gives you an R.O. A score keeper, 3 spotters, a loading table officer, and unloading table officer and 5 people should be loading or preparing to load.  10 works pretty well as well, but the loading table has to be kept full.  3 minutes per shooter...

Regards,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

Mako, do you have small burro to haul that medieval torture device to the range to load with? 


FWIW, I have always loaded with cylinder off the gun and then never directly from the flask as I use a brass funnel. There's a trick to shielding it from the wind with your fingers. I know a fella who saw a guy lose a hand at a BP shoot years ago loading a musket. He said the guy loaded from a flask and it evidently had a burning ember somewhere in the barrel. He said the flask grenaded and the man was left with a charred stump.  That was in Missouri I believe. As stated before, pistols are a different matter than rifles and there is probably little danger. I always smartly tap the cylinder face down on the bench and sometimes even blow into it before loading anyway.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Mako

Yup, we usually count on about an hour per stag. Although sometimes we get lucky and it only takes about 45 minutes. Still plenty of time for a C&B pistol to be safe to reload.

In these parts, depending on the club and how many show up posses can vary from 12 to 20 shooters.

[Mako]

Mako, do you have small burro to haul that medieval torture device to the range to load with?  

Ha, no burro...hmmmm, nahhhh.  Just my gun cart.  It is intentionally made out of aluminum to keep the weight down.  It's really not that big I have it in a tote tray with a handle on top it contains all of the necessary things to reload and do the quick cleaning I do between stages.

Since I have the cylinder out f the gun it is very convenient to stick the spout in the chamber precluding the need for a funnel.  I invert the flask, throw a charge, turn it upright and verify the charge is to the top of the spout and then pour it into the chamber.

~Mako

[Mako]

Mako
Yup, we usually count on about an hour per stag. Although sometimes we get lucky and it only takes about 45 minutes. Still plenty of time for a C&B pistol to be safe to reload.

In these parts, depending on the club and how many show up posses can vary from 12 to 20 shooters.

Plenty of time to reload?  I sure hope 45 minutes to an hour is enough time.  This is my routine which takes about three shooters time (explained below).  I do it in this fashion for several reasons, the primary being safety, the second is to keep the stage moving, the third is to make sure I am contributing as a posse member.

This is my routine:
PRIOR TO FIRST STAGE HAMMER DOWN

• After signing in at the match I go over to a designated safe handling area on the shooting line and reinspect both pistols.
• I pull the cylinders and verify the flash holes are clear by holding them up to the sky. In most cases I have used a squirt of degreaser down each chamber the night before or that morning before putting them in the truck.  I follow that with compressed air.  If I am on an overnight match out of town I may simply pop a cap on each chamber at the table to verify the flash holes are clear.
• I load the cylinders with powder, wads and balls then reassemble the pistols.  After wiping them down and thoroughly cleaning the grips I holster them.
• After all of the initial match business I then join my posse at the stage we are starting on.

EACH STAGE (Prior to shooting)

• On the first stage and all following stages I start out serving as a spotter. If there are 12 or less people on the posse I will spot for the first three and then go to the loading table. This is important because it allows me enough time following my turn shooting to complete my routine.
• I cap at the loading table with my snail capper and use my push stick to assure the  caps are seated.  I show the cap placements and the one empty chamber to the loading table officer (who in many cases is the person in front of you) put the pistols on the loading table and load my rifle, etc.  
• After waiting my turn which is usually 3 or four shooters I go to the line and thrill the viewing audience and posse with my feats of shooting skill and smoke making...

POST SHOOTING

• I then gather my weapons and go to the unloading table.
• At the unloading table I first show my shotgun to be unloaded, then my rifle.  I then pull my left pistol and proceed to pick any caps and fragments off of the cones with a pair of tweezers I have in a loop on my suspenders.  I rotate the cylinder and show the Unloading Table officer that the pistol is clear, when it is pronounced clear I re-holster it. Then I draw repeat with my right pistol.
• I take my rifle and shotgun and either move them to the rack on the next stage or return them to my cart.

POST UNLOADING (Cleaning and Inspection)

• I retrieve my loading tote from my cart which has everything I need to load and return to the Unloading Table.
• I relieve the Unloading Table officer which allows them to go and load up and I become the Unloading Table Safety Officer
• In-between helping people unload and verifying they are clear I begin to recharge my cylinders.
• I use a wooden dowel or wooden stick to either press the wedge or tap it out. I then pull the barrel and cylinder and wipe the forcing cone area on the barrel and look down the bore, I don't even push a patch through them anymore because my lube keeps the fouling soft and the wads I use keep the bore relatively the same after the first shot. The wads on the left are lubricated, the ones on the right are freshly punched.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Lube%20and%20Loading/wads-1-1.jpg

• I inspect the hammer channel including the area just below where the hammer enters the frame for cap debris.  I brush the hammer face with a small stiff brush to assure I have a clean face. On average I find cap fragments at least once or twice in a match and you get build up on the face of the hammer.  
• I take the cylinder and brush the cones vigorously to clean off the carbon fouling that builds up taking particular car to clean the cone faces to bare metal.  

CHARGING THE CYLINDERS

• I look I look in the chambers for any debris (this would be where you would see a smoldering ember).   I have never, and I mean never found anything in the chambers that were fired.
• At this point I take the flask and charge 5 chambers while holding the cylinder in my other hand.  
• I give a quick visual check and place a Ø7/16"marking dowel (roughly 1 3/4" long) in the empty chamber and place the cylinder on the arbor of my loading stand
• I put lubricated wads in the 5 open chambers and use a 4" long Ø7/16" dowel to firmly seat each wad.  I then make a visual check to verify the wads are at roughly the same height as a powder charge check.
• I place a ball on the mouth of each chamber and pull the marking rod off of the empty one.
• I index the cylinder under the ramming station of the loader and firmly seat each ball  
• I remove the cylinder from the loading stand and use a brush to remove any remaining lead rings cut during the ball insertion.  I then inspect the face, chamber bores and arbor hole for stray grains of powder that may have gotten out of the chambers or were dribbled during charging.  If there are any I either blow them off or use a brush to remove them.  I keep a 3/8"  wide paint brush in the loading tote to brush powder out of the chambers if necessary.  If there is powder in the arbor hole I use a cleaning rod with a patch and run it down the bore.

INSPECTION AND RE-ASSEMBLY

• I havealready wiped the powder residue from the arbor at the point where it protrudes face of the cylinder.  If I have run a patch through the cylinder arbor hole, or if the arbor appears dry I will lubricate it with either bore butter or some very soft tallow and bees wax lube I keep for this purpose. I basically keep the lube in the groves on the arbor.
• I reassemble the pistol and press the wedge in with a dowel or square shafted handle of an old brush until the spring catch clears the other side of the barrel.  I rarely have to tap the wedge. I have the arbor length set, so it will not close the cylinder gap, but I set my wedge the same way each time to facilitate removal and as a visual check the wedge is correctly reinserted.
• I have a small spritzer of alcohol (rubbing will work or Isopropyl)  which I spray onto a cloth and I use that to wipe the gripping surfaces.  The alcohol will remove any grease or oils.
• I holster the charged pistol and draw the right one and follow the previous steps.

POST RECHARGING

• Continue in my responsibilities as The Safety Officer until relieved.  I may then return to spotting, brass picking or taking the R.O. spot while they shoot.
  
• If someone has had a problem with a weapon they are usually brought to me and I may have interrupted my loading routine to help if they need to re-shoot (in rare cases) or if they haven't shot yet.
  
  

Some may think this process is a bit anal, but it is safe and if you ask those who shoot with me how many misfires or problems they have ever seen me have they would probably have a hard time remembering any.  If I have a problem it is always primer fragment related.  It wasn't until I modeled several Colt's pattern revolvers a few years ago that I realized the percussion hammers do not follow the rear of the hammer cut the way the S.A.A. hammers do. The '73s have a concentric radius on the hammer and very little clearance.  Colt when designing the percussion revolvers left clearance between the hammer at the cut face which will still allow the pistol to function with some debris in the channel.  That clearance is shown in the image below.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Lube%20and%20Loading/clearance.jpg

You will note that I have also made maximum effort to assure I am always contributing to the chores of the posse.  Reloading off of the pistol allows me to accomplish several additional tasks.

• Do a light cleaning
• Inspect for debris  or problems
• Allows easy and safe starting and stopping and re-starting of the charging process.  This happens for a variety of reasons
  
  
  
  • A halt to firing and a "down range" command requiring everyone to retreat from the line
  • Helping someone with a problem
  • Answering questions I often get, especially from spectators there for the first time  

One last thing, notice where I specifically say left pistol then right; or shogun first then rifle.  Get in the habit of always doing things in a certain order and you won't forget what you are doing.  I saw a shooter go to the line once with a '51 that had nothing but caps on it.  It "looked" loaded and it was even verified by the loading table checker.  He was stopped after he popped the second cap, the R.O. thought he had a squib which could lead to a bullet in the barrel.  I thought it was interesting he didn't get stopped until the second pop.  

I was at the unloading table and he sheepishly admitted he forgot to load the pistol.  It was his left pistol and he drew his right one first shooting Duelist style.  He also drew his right one first to reload, he got distracted because he charged at his cart and people were talking to him.  He loaded on the pistol and didn't do any kind of wipe down or inspection.  Being back (actually over) at his cart limited his ability to handle the pistol with impunity.  He had sort of bragged before that about how quickly he could load back up and spent most of his time talking.  Since he missed it at the loading table, it means the shooter missed it twice.  I don't see how he could have capped without peeking over the edge of the cylinder to check the balls and the empty chamber.  Actually It can happen to anyone, I have seen cartridge shooters on the line with unloaded guns.  So a routine really helps.

If this sounds like a lot of work you are mistaken.  It is a routine almost to the point of being choreographed.  It allows me to easily reload and do so with a minimum of decision making.  The routine promotes safety and identifies problems before they become issue on the line.  I have had more problems with my rifles or even cartridge revolvers than I have my percussion pistols because of the planning and discipline the routine promotes.  I can do this with a 10 person posse all day long and not break a sweat, and I know we definitely do it in less than 45 minutes per stage.  The problem is usually with people who don't go to the loading table when they should because they are standing around talking.

We stand around and talk a lot and we stand around and talk a lot after a match as well, but a well run posse clicks along.  We cut-up the entire time.  I'll bet half of the people ad-lib the "starting line."  We hoot and holler, we shout support and congratulate clean stages, we walk newbies through and make them feel welcome.  In fact I often take on a new shooter and literally stand with them at the loading table, behind them a few feet at the shooting line and at the un-loading table.  I can do that and still keep my routine (except for the Un-Loading Table S.O.).  

As shooters of the one TRUE POWDER we have a reputation to uphold and I consider it my responsibility to remove any excuse anyone might have in saying that B.P. is too much trouble.  I used to know shooters who would change their names from one posse sheet to another or look before signing one to avoid B.P. shooters and Frontiersman in particular.  They had two complaints:

• It was smoky...waaaaaaaahhhh (Yep it is!!!!!!!!)
• Posses with BP shooters were slow.

I have dealt with the second complaint, and I actually have some super high smoke and blast warthog rounds I pull out for the shotgun when I get on a posse with one of them.  I figure if they ingest enough of the holy smoke they just might be converted (nahh, I just like hearing them whine).

Regards,
Mako

[Pettifogger]

My flask.  Never use a measure, just dump it in.

[Deadeye Dick]

Mako,
Thanks for sharing. Looks like a great process and gives me some new ideas. Where do you get the wad felt?
Deadeye Dick

[Pettifogger]

Everyone develops their own technique for loading their cylinders.  Here is what I do at major matches (WR, EOT, Regionals).

First, here is my cylinder loader for the Ruger Old Army.



Next, I insert an aluminum rod to mark my dead chamber.



Then charge all five chambers and drop five balls.



Ram home the balls and reinstall the cylinder.  All done in one or two shooters on a posse.



I never use real BP at a major match because of the time constraints and I want the process as simple and foolproof as possible.  So, I use APP with just powder and ball.  Never any lube and never a wad.  I've actually had a wad get jammed between the front of the cylinder and the back of the barrel.  A million to one that it would never happen again, but one of the keys to success at a major match is eliminating as many potential problems as possible.

[Mako]

First, here is my cylinder loader for the Ruger Old Army...
...I never use real BP at a major match because of the time constraints and I want the process as simple and foolproof as possible.  So, I use APP with just powder and ball. 

woooof...  shudddder.. uh, do you drink de-caf coffee and ride a Japanese motorcycle too?

Mako

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

As always, your posts are full of useful and fascinating detail along with wonderful graphics.  While my first match with my new Dragoons went smoothly, you have definitely provided some valuable food for thought here that will improve my loading process.

[Pettifogger]

woooof...  shudddder.. uh, do you drink de-caf coffee and ride a Japanese motorcycle too?

Mako

Don't drink coffee and have just a basic hog.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Pettifogger, good Lord how old are your balls! They have oxide!! 

[Pettifogger]

Pettifogger, good Lord how old are your balls! They have oxide!! 

Smile when you talk about my balls!  Oh, you mean the ones in the picture.  I've been shooting C&B since 1961, I could lie and say this is part of my original stash.  But, a couple of years ago I bought a whole bunch of balls from a vendor at a muzzleloader match.  They had apparently gotten damp and the balls in several boxes came "antiqued."  Look ugly, but they shoot OK.

[Noz]

Mako, remind me to never ask you for the time.

[Mako]

Mako, remind me to never ask you for the time.

Local, Zulu or Planck time?