Other Than Cautious Mixing

[Shotgun Franklin]

Ever read articles about those that mix and match BP? I read, not to long ago, about a guy mixing Pellets and regular BP. Said it shot fine. Got way more velocity than just BP. The only minor drawback was that it beat the wedge out of shape so he might have to reshape or replace it. I guess the concept that it might be 'not right' just didn't register?

[Frenchie]

I guess for some people, maximum velocity is the only reason for "rolling your own" ammo. This guy might even show off the gun when it finally gets battered into uselessness.   

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, Shotgun Franklin!

I've done that but I won't make it a habit.  When I first got my Dragoon, I didn't have a spout or combination of spouts that would throw the full charge of 50 grs., but I did have some 30 gr. pellets and a spout that threw approx 20 grs. of 3F.  I wanted to shoot the gun at various powder levels from a minimum of 30 grs. to the 50 gr. max.  When I got to the high charge, I used my powder measure to drop in the 20 (ish) grs. then put in the pellet.  Touched it all off with Remington #11 caps and went for a wonderful ride.  It shot VERY well, was VERY accurate and consistent, but recoil, which TO ME wasn't bad, but approached what several others said felt like a modern magnum and caused the loading lever to drop about 85% of the time.  I fired the gun, a Colt 2nd Gen., 1st Mod. Dragoon, with all of those loads I had which was about 60 of the original 100 in the container when it was full.  I'd fired the other 40 or so over the last few years.  Most of those Hot-potatoes loads the first day, and a few at our inaugural SMVS NCOWS Club match.  (There is a video of that match here on the CAS City website, in Marshal H's video section ... I'm in the Cavalry Sergeant uniform and there is a LOT of smoke and sound in the video!) (I've just tried to find the video, but perhaps it's now gone - no mater)

There was absolutely NO damage to anything, nor did I consider it unsafe.  However, due to the lever dropping, I've limited my full power loads to a maximum of 44-45 grs. and that is with loose 3F powder, since my supply of pellets is gone and they are VERY expensive here in the Indianapolis area - about $18 or so for a container of 100, which is less than 1/2 lb.  So, I don't bother anymore, because it's truly NOT needed for the NCOWS and occasional SASS shooting I do.  My standard load is about 40-42/3 grs. now and it MUST have at least 30 grs. or the bullet seats without any powder compression, which is not good.  (A small bit of airspace probably won't hurt, but I CAN hear a difference.  With a load that's not compressed and has a small amount of airspace (very hard to actually SEE  ) it fires with a muffled whoofsh, not a good, solid BOOM. 

I the gun were not a high quality gun with better steel than most BP guns (many or most or all coming from Italy, including at least PART of mine) I'd bet that a steady diet WOULD cause some damage to the wedge and perhaps elsewhere.  On a brass-framed gun, I wouldn't EVER  shoot a mixed load or even many full power loads at all.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I guess for some people, maximum velocity is the only reason for "rolling your own" ammo. This guy might even show off the gun when it finally gets battered into uselessness.   

Frenchie - it's not about shooting "Higher-than-safe" or the most power possible, it's about shooting the guns with the FULL power loads they were designed for. 

A battered gun is hardly better than a 44 cal. paperweight!   

There ARE (I'm sure) some who want to push these guns past their design limits, but those of us who take pride in being "Warthogs" DO NOT recommend shooting unsafe loads ... only what was designed originally.  Modern Italian steel used in most of these BP replica guns will probably never win any awards for strength  but it PROBABLY IS stronger than the steel used back "in the day."  Heck, some of the earliest guns, - i.e. - Walkers, early fluted cylinder 1860 Army Colts, and no doubt others, used IRON for some of the construction!

That might batter more than the gun!!



But I'm NOT wanting to get into a pi$$ing contest, Mssr. Frenchie!   
      (I hope my abbreviation is correct!)

[Montana Slim]

No problem shooting full loads...but I use a less than max load in my 1860's for everyday shooting at matches & such...25 gr 3F &  .454 RB. This is about as light as I can load & still be sure to ram the ball tight with the built-in tool (my preference). Its accurate & easily reaches out to 50 yd targets. My Dragoons are shot in similar fashion....enough powder to allow fully seating the ball or bullet with the rammer. I find 40 gr of FF & a RB most pleasant to shoot in my Dragoons & it barks pretty well.

Regards,
Slim

[Wills Point Pete]

 Are there any real BP pellets? I thought they were all Pyrodex. Did the feller trying to batter his shootin' iron into submission mix Prrodex with real BP or 777 or something? I could see adding Pyro to a Pyro pellet to make the top load, I'd be real hesitant to mix Pyro pellets with some other sort without first talking to some real smart feller from, say, Hodgdon.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Pete, I've asked the Hodgdon expert about BP pellets.  To my knowledge, ONLY Pyrodex and Triple 7 are made into pellets.  I don't know why, but it may have something to do with the process of compressing - I don't think BP takes kindly to the type of compressing that it takes to make the pellets.  Obviously, the type of compression we do in loading with BP is OK, but ...

[Shotgun Franklin]

Prodex with real BP or 777

Yep, I hesitate to quote the source. But it was in a bi-monthly mag dedicated to living an old timey livestyle.

[Montana Slim]

I'm pretty sure real BP pellets would be possible....I once broke-down one of my 45-70 rounds...and it was very difficult to remove the powder. The top, bottom & sides of the powder column were compressed into a solid mass nearly 1/8" (approx) thickness, with the center being somewhat softer. I had to dig all of the powder out with a small scewdriver. No fun at all. BTW, this round had 75 grains of FF & a 500 gr bullet. Around .300" of Compression using a die & card wad before seating the bullet.

A person with the desire, time, skill & tools at their disposal could make a die set for their press to experiment making pellets.

Slim

[Wills Point Pete]

 When I was a kid there was a certain amount of construction/destruction around the ranches and farms, we tore down a lot of old line cabins, houses, barns, etc. We found a bunch of old ammo, some still in boxes we could read, much dated before smokeless. This was before anyone ever heard of cartridge collection, we kids went all over finding guns to shoot it.

Some of it didn't go "BOOM"! and we often tore it down. Some of the time the powder poured out fairly easily, sometimes it was hard a half inch down, sometimes all the way to the case head. The same ammo, in the same brand seemed to all be about the same, but the same cartridge in different brands would be different, as would different cartridges in the same brand. It was like those old guys would experiment or something, imagine that.

This was, of course, long before anyone ever heard of the subs. I don't pay much attention to the subs, seeing as how I live in the country where nobody cares if I own black powder and, as far as I'm concerned, local laws would be the only reason to use such subs. My whole reason for commenting is that there seems to be no information if this is some kind of a mix. There is certainly no reason for real Black to cause a wedge to be badly battered, you should simply not get enough real powder to do this. I understand that 777 could, perhaps, do so.

I also do not quite understand the pellets. So, I read that the subs like to just be kind of snugged up, not compressed. So, if we can't compress the stuff, how does it get made into pellets? Ah, I'll stick with Scheutzen and GOEX, with a side of Swiss when I have a little extra cash. That stuff I kinda understand.

[Drayton Calhoun]

I remember hearing about a cousin of mine who used the 'duplex' load of Blue-Dot and BP...uh, yeah, not real smart. As far as BP pellets, I think the problem is the rate of burn. A BP pellet would be somewhat like a rocket motor, it would tend to burn from the base forward, rapidly, to be sure, but not as 'explosive' as loose powder. Of course, I could be wrong.

[Shotgun Franklin]

In the earlier days of CAS shooters tried duplex loads of BP and smokeless. I didn't think it was smart then and still don't.

[Frenchie]

But I'm NOT wanting to get into a pi$$ing contest, Mssr. Frenchie!          (I hope my abbreviation is correct!)

Naw, it's alright, I'm just prickly lately. I've run into a couple of shooters who seem to think the only reason to reload ammo is to push the ammo and the gun as close to the edge as possible. Idjits.

Hmm... M. is "Monsieur". "Mssrs" is the plural, so you called me "Misters Frenchie" LOL! 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Naw, it's alright, I'm just prickly lately. I've run into a couple of shooters who seem to think the only reason to reload ammo is to push the ammo and the gun as close to the edge as possible. Idjits.

Hmm... M. is "Monsieur". "Mssrs" is the plural, so you called me "Misters Frenchie" LOL! 

Sorry, M. Frenchie!  LOL!

[Grapeshot]

I've mixed BP with Pyrodex when loading shotshells.  It wwas more Goex 2Fg than Pyrodex R/S and those shells fired fine with no problems knocking down targets at our local CAS match.  Hulls were those old Russian copper plated steel shells.  They held up just fine.

[Fairshake]

All BP is made by compressing into large solid cakes. They look like huge hockey pucks. They are then put through milling wheels to make the proper grain sizes. The better grades of sporting powders are given more corning time to make them all close to the same size. Black Powder burns fron the outside in and the more even the surface the better the burn. A large grain such as 1F will burn slow and a 3F much faster. The shotguns seem to perform better with 2F so as has already been posted it is easier to keep one grain size for loading. I have mixed a 50/50 of 2F and 3F and used it in SASS loads. No real advantage with accuraccy or cleaning that I could see. Some rifle shooters will put a small amount of 3or 4F next to the primer to set off a large case filled with a large grain powder.