Custer's troopers carbines

[shrapnel]

  I think, Shrapnel, that the cases on the left and right are boxer primed.  The cartridge in the middle appears to be an internally primed copper case, which does place it at the Battle or at least of around the time that battle was fought.  That is a very nice piece.  Many of the cartridges and cases found at the LBH site are boxer primed.  They held their first re-enactment just ten years after the battle.  Real participants in the original battle participated in the first re-enactment. (there is that famous picture of them standing around the mass grave marker on Custer Hill.)  They would have been firing boxer primed cartridges. 

I should better explain the cases...

The 45-70 casing on the left is one I found on the shore of Hebgen lake, it is much later than the Indian Wars ammunition. It is, as you can see smashed on the end, something the US government recommended anyone firing reloadable brass, to do to keep Indians from reloading the case. I don't know if that is indeed why the case mouth is pinched, but the rest of the case is in excellent shape.

The 50-70 casing on the right is the one I found near the Little Bighorn River, not far from the battle site. It is of the same make and markings of other 50-70 cases picked up on the battlefield.

The knife is also from Hebgen lake, where my mother and I collected dozens of artifacts each spring as the snow and ice melted away.

The square piece is flint from a flint-lock rifle that the Indians have converted to a thumb scraper.

[Dead I]

Thanks for the Info Shrapnel.  Those are neat finds. Around here if one picks up a knife like that, and the local tribe finds out, you are in deep poopoo.  I'm sure you know that the knife could be thousands of years old.  Very neat artifact. I think the Indian cultures were fascinating.  Hardy people and brave.  Which is why so many people call their football teams after Indians.  It is not an insult.  It is an accolade.  If someone called their team the "Old bald headed fat white guys", I'd be proud too.  Don't think we'd win many games however.

[Dead I]

Shrapnel: I've been reading from my copy of The Custer Batte an Assessment of the 1984 Field Seasom. I bought this in 1987.  This was written by the people who did the dig at the LBH site.  They found three different kinds of 50/70 cartridges each with different priming.  One was the Benet internal primed center fire.  That's the one where the base of the shell doesn't show the primer pocket.  There was also a Martin-primed shell. This shows a large primer that that can be seen from the outside, as in a modern cartridge, and then the UMC-typed primer which looks like a modern shell casing and smaller primer. I think, after viewing your pictures your 50/70 is a UMC-primed case which were used by Indians during the BLBH. 

[Dead I]

More likely Berdan primed.

This is very likely.  There were some externally primed centerfire weapons that used the Berdan primers.  But the boxer primers were eventually adopted and maybe because they were easier to deprime and re-prime.  Europeans used the Berdan priming until after WWII. 

[JimBob]

 The Army did issue a reloading tool.  Here is one from 1891.  I suspect they may have issued one earlier.  

The tool in your picture is not government issue.It is a Winchester Model 1891 Reloading tool.It can be found illustrated and IDed in an original advertisement in Cartridge Reloading Tools of the Past by Chamberlain and Quigley.The Ordnance Dept. did buy commercially made tools for testing and experimental purposes which may account for the stampings.The first official reloading set was the Model 1880 which is covered in the Annual Report of the Chief of Ordnance for the Fiscal Year 1880.An excellent book on government issue reloading sets and there development is Tools,Targets,and Troopers by James Zupan.

[Dead I]

Yep, my reloading tool is marked by Winchester and 45 Gov. which I took to mean it was gov't issue, but it is actually a mark that shows the caliber it is meant to load. 

Thanks for the head's up.

[shrapnel]

Shrapnel: I've been reading from my copy of The Custer Batte an Assessment of the 1984 Field Seasom. I bought this in 1987.  This was written by the people who did the dig at the LBH site.  They found three different kinds of 50/70 cartridges each with different priming.  One was the Benet internal primed center fire.  That's the one where the base of the shell doesn't show the primer pocket.  There was also a Martin-primed shell. This shows a large primer that that can be seen from the outside, as in a modern cartridge, and then the UMC-typed primer which looks like a modern shell casing and smaller primer. I think, after viewing your pictures your 50/70 is a UMC-primed case which were used by Indians during the BLBH. 

It is a primed case, however I am not sure of it's origin. It matches many casings pictured in Henry Weibert's collections of artifacts he found on the battlefield. His collection was the most extensive there was, but historians didn't rcognize his work as it was done without their assistance. Much can be learned about the battle by reading Weibert's books, as no one spent more time studying the artifacts and history than Henry. He was the one that actually found the site of the Crow's Nest where Custer first saw the Indiand encampment in June 1876.

[Shotgun Franklin]

I'm betting that at some of the memorial services Militray Salutes were fired. I'm wondering if thier brass turns up on occasion?

[Dead I]

I'm betting that at some of the memorial services Militray Salutes were fired. I'm wondering if thier brass turns up on occasion?

I can report that they did make a blank round for the 45/70 rifle/carbine.  They probably made one for the 50/70 as well.  They also loaded a 45/70 round with BP and three .45 round balls one on top of the other.  It was used as a guard gun round.  There is even a gallery round for inside shooting.  It's 5 or 6 grains (There are two loads depending on the length of the room you'll be shooting in.) of BP with one round ball loaded on top.  You have to push the bullet way down there with a dowel, it looks like an empty shell, but it'll shoot at around 700 fps according to J.S. Wolf, late of Hill City, SD...  Wolf's book Loading Cartridges for the Original 45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine covers the subject in fine detail.

BTW: records that I read report that the 45/70 cartridges used in the BLBH were all loaded with 405 grain bullets.  The powder charges varied, 55 grains for the carbine and 70 for the rifle.  The 500 grain bullet was not adopted for the rifle until the M82 round which had a different case and priming.