European marks on Spencers.

[Dana]

Hello, I have seen a couple of Spencers that have German marks on them, they all seem to sell a little less than ones that don't. Is there a reason that these are less valuable.

Dana

[Two Flints]

Dana,

Are they the Belgium made Spencers?  See this link: 

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,30928.msg406285.html#msg406285

Two Flints

[Herbert]

value of difrent marks on antique guns is oftern determined by were it is sold, if it is not a very sort after type,it will almost always bring more in the location it was marked ,eg:I have a standard Burncide Spencer carbine that has N.S.W. POLICE mark,in Australia this doubles its value as this is proof it was yoused by the mounted police in pursuit of bushrangers(the best arms were given out on these acasions) I would expect the Beligium Spencer would bring more in Brazil than any were else,although they are a uncomon type some might pay more for one if they were after a full Spencer colection(I belive I would for a good one If I could aford it)

[DJ]

Dana--

I have not seen any Spencers with German marks, but the French obtained a number of Spencers before the Franco-Prussian (1870-71) war, and it seems likely that some of those could have ended up in Germany.  The French also obtained Peabody rifles for the same war, and I have seen those with German proof marks (a crown above the letter "V"), so it stands to reason that a Spencer could have received the same mark.  As I understand it (and I may be mistaken), the Germans instituted some kind of universal proofing requirement around the turn of the last century, and many firearms located in Germany received proof marks as a result of that new requirement.

I have also seen (and regret not buying) a Spencer with what appeared to be British unit markings (although they could have been British Canadian), and I have read of other Spencers with British governmental markings.  

It would help, of course, if we could see a photo or good drawing of the marks you are asking about.

As to value of the guns, I agree with Herbert that locality frequently makes a difference with marks that can be attributed to a particular region/country/colony.  As a very general rule, regarding U.S. firearms, one that is marked as having been issued to U.S. (or C.S.A.) forces would generally be more sought-after in the U.S. and have a higher value than the same weapon with markings suggesting use by a foreign military.

I look forward to hearing more about the markings on the Spencer you asked about.

--DJ

[Dana]

DJ,  One of the rifles with these markings is under Guttermans Historic Weapons web sight, pre-1865. The Spencer carbine he said was shipped to France, captured by Germans, and sold back to U.S. Do markings like these detract from the rifle.

Sorry I don't know how to get these pictures over to this sight.

Dana

[Herbert]

I would think it would not deminish the value,France obtained all the spencers that were available,this included all the surpales goverment stocks boath 1860&1865 models and thousands of 1860 converted to 56-50 at Springfield,these were sold through agents ,and Winchester sold all the unsold modle 1867s& NMs it had,this is why a 1867 or NM is easier to find in Europe than any were else

[DJ]

On an M1865 carbine the value is going to be determined almost wholly by condition.  Demonstrated provenance or some kind of rare markings could change that (are there genuine Wells Fargo Spencers?), but a European proof mark should not make any significant difference in value. 

The proof marks on the carbine in the photos on the Gutterman website appear to match what is understood about the French Spencers--captured by or surrendered to the Germans during or after the Franco-Prussian war, at some point proofed with the crown-over "V", and then eventually surplused by the Germans to who-knows-where.  This one eventually returning across the Atlantic to the U.S.A.