Over-Rotating or Failing to Index

[August]

After years of trouble-free service, my Roooogers let me down in the big match last weekend.   One of them failed to fire during the first stage of the match.

The hammers fell, the transfer bars are in perfect condition, the firing pins are extending fully forward.  Yet, the primers had no (zero, nada) marks on them in two of five chambers attempted to fire.  Well, as you might imagine, ten seconds out of the box was the difference in the match in the end.  One very angry cowboy.

I figure the only way such a FTF could occur is by improper indexing.  There would be some kind of mark on those Federal primers if the hammer had fallen when they were beneath the firing pin.

Took the gunz apart.  Nothing note worthy in the lock work.  The bolt springs and plungers look O.K. but might benefit from replacement, I don't know.

Is this a characteristic of Rooooogers when they're run really fast?  If so, would someone suggest a fix or a different brand of gun?

As it stands right now, my Rooooooger pistols cost me the match of the year and I'm gonna have to wait another year to get another chance.  A Roooger ruined my thousand dollar weekend. 

A couple of knowledgeable cowboys said, "Yep, that's Rooogers for you"  in reply to my questions about the situation.  Is this a known issue with Roooogers?   Is it time for me to look for better pistols?  Please help.

Thanks for any help you might provide.

AW

[Deadeye Dick]

Are you sure it says Ruger on the barrel of that gun? Any Ruger that I've owned has been pretty near indestructible.

Deadeye Dick

[Crow Choker]

Bad time for ya for sure. Not saying this is the problem, but could be the possibility, as been there -done this. Were you using reloads? Since I'm a quarter Scot-Irish and they say Scots are cheap, I use to be when it came to tossing brass when its day had come. One time when shooting a police qualifacation shoot, I was shooting some additional matches using some 38 rds I had reloaded. I was shooting a Colt Trooper Mark III that never had given me a single miss-step. I had five rds that failed to fire in the 50 rd course. The problem, the five rds had primers that were seated to deep, not allowing the firing pin to hit hard enough to fire. The brass that I was using was some that had been reloaded unknown times and should have been retired. I recalled when reloading them that the primers in some of them went in way to easy, but thought, ah they'll fire. Glad it wasn't a run through for final score. Good lesson! Is your main spring original or have enough 'zing'? Saw a problem once with a guy once who installed a different Colt Python main spring just before a state combat shoot without first giving it a try-thought it would give him an edge. I told him not a good idea-he had a number missfires due to to light of a spring. With the original one reinstalled, no further problems were to be had. I've never had any of the problems with my Rugers you described, though a good check of internal mechanics might not hurt if the problems I described arenot of any consequence. Most of the time I've seen misfires over the years, the ammo was the main cause.  

[Abilene]

Hmm, I typed in a response and it didn't show up.  Let's try again.

Howdy August.  Since the bolt rises to contact the cylinder very early on Rugers (hence the line around the cylinder), they avoid the over-rotation problem that some folks have with Colts/Clones.  On the other hand, Rugers have a different problem, particularly when going fast:  short-stroking the hammer, that is, letting it go before pulling it all the way back.  When this happens, the gun goes click instead of bang, and when you pull the hammer back again it goes to the next round in the cylinder.  Then after the remaining consecutive rounds are shot, the shooter has to cock and pull the trigger several times, as many as 5, to get the cylinder back around to the round that got skipped and make that round fire.  When you heard "Yep, that's Rooogers for you", that is what they were talking about.  Since you have been shooting these guns (fast) for years, I'm surprised it has never happened to you before.  I'm also surprised that the R.O. let you continue the stage without at least attempting to fire the two skipped rounds (I'm assuming you either handed the gun off or laid it down on a prop, not reholstering it).  If you had kept cocking and pulling the trigger you would have gotten those two rounds to fire in just a few seconds which would have been much better than the 10 second penalty for two misses.

As for a "fix", other than being sure to pull the hammer back all the way, you can have your guns modified to add a half-cock notch to the hammer.  This makes it work more like a Colt, and when the hammer is not pulled back all the way it should drop to the half-cock notch, and then when you pull it back again the cylinder does not skip a round.

Note that I am not a gunsmith and I don't know Rugers as well as Colts.  But I've seen a lot of Ruger shooters have this issue over the years and this is my understanding of the issue.  Good luck.

[Crow Choker]

Good info Abilene-never heard of Rugers doing that or expierenced it. If I ever have it happen I'll know whats up.

[August]

Abilene,

Thank you, sir, for your very helpful remarks.

Actually, I did go around the cylinder TWO MORE TIMES before setting the gun down.  It was only upon unloading that the two, unfired rounds showed that the primers HAD NOT BEEN STRUCK.  So, I dropped the hammer on those two primers THREE TIMES without a mark.

I like the idea of the half cock notch as a way of further trouble shooting the problem.

My theory was that the bolt was somehow bouncing out of the cylinder notch and allowing over-rotation. 

One knowledgeable pard (Larson Pettifogger) suggested the bolt springs as a likely candidate for wear and tear.  I do plan to replace those as soon as possible, but they looked pretty good when taking the pistols down for inspection yesterday.

Could I have short stroked the same chambers three times in a row?  Sure, I could have.  I did go there to win the match, not just to have a good time and get some air.  (went to have a good time too, so all was not lost).

Once the guns warmed up, there were no more problems for the rest of the two day match.  I was kind of chalking it up to bolt springs and sticky Mobil 1 grease (which is falling into disfavor with me).

Again, thank you for your thoughts and experience.  I hope to hear from others who've experienced this issue with Roooogers.

Thanks all.

[Abilene]

August, since you did try to fire the rounds several times, that does sort of sound like something other than the explanation I gave.  Sounds like you have an idea.  Good luck.

[Adirondack Jack]

First off, for cold weather use, nothing heavier than light machine oil (commonly called gun oil, sewing machine oil, etc) for the bolt springs.  But I got another idea.  If ya went round again and still didn't get a primer strike on the same chambers, I'm thinking either ya got burrs or dings on the bolt slots on the cylinder, or beat up ratchet and/worn "pawl (hand).  These might cause a "skate through" or an early stop of the cylinder.  Skate through would be my best guess, where the bolt did not return QUITE in time, or returned weakly owing to the grease, and if ya got battered bolt notches in the cylinder (for those chambers), might could skate right over the notch instead of locking up, which, when run fast, would be an issue.  Eyeball the sides of the bolt notches for burrs and the bolt for battering, replace the plunger spring, and get the grease outta the plunger.

[bear tooth billy]

I've got 2 vaqueros that over rotate  first one started it a couple of years ago, it would over index and the firing pin dent
would be on the brass not the primer. It was always the same chamber, I put that cylinder in my other pistol and using snap caps
it still did it. I sent it to Ruger and they put in a few parts and when came it came I was surprised they didn't replace the
cylinder. It worked for a couple of matches and acted up again, same chamber (i marked it) This year my other one started
doing the same thing, always the same chamber  I marked the chamber with white marking and I don't load that chamber
not really the right fix but I haven't had a problem since . Should I send them back or do what I'm doing? If another
chamber acts up then I have a problem. Mine are 44/40s which shouldn't make a difference.

[August]

Thanks to all who posted.  You gave me enough ideas and moral support to pursue the issue to the end.

It seems the over rotation was due to an accumulation of issues.  None of the problems would have caused over rotation by itself, although one issue would have eventually destroyed the gun.  Here's what I've concluded:

1.  There were significant machining grooves on the lead that carries the bolt down into the mortise on the cylinders of the guns.  These grooves run axially to the rotation of the cylinder.  They present mini-speed bumps to the bolt as it travels down into the mortise.  These are evident when looking at the bolt notches with a jeweler's loop.  

2. The top surface of a Rooooger bolt is cut perpendicular to the side surfaces.  In other words, the bolt is 'flat' on top.  Colt's bolts (good name for an after dinner desert) on the other hand are cut at an angle that matches the 'ramp' that leads into the cylinder mortise.  So, on a Colt's bolt, the bolt is presenting a high point to the face of the mortise that stops the cylinder rotation.  This configuration, as it exists on Colt's guns, makes for a much more positive index.  It also presents more bolt material to the face of the mortise, which can lessen peening from stopping fast cylinder rotation.

3. The mortises on the offending Roooger were, in fact, peened to the point where there was a raised burr above the mortise on the 'stop side' of the mortise.  It was clear on the problem gun that the bolt and cylinder were destined for failure at some point.  This, I feel is a problem with the original fitting of the gun and does not speak well of Roooger quality.

4. As a number of you pointed out, grease has no place in the guts of a single action pistol.  Oil will work just fine, thank you.  Further, grease gets pretty sticky on cold mornings and has detergent in it wihich eventually turns the whole mass to sludge.  

So, the wrong lubricant, on a cold day, on a pistol with a poorly fitted bolt, which ran in very rough lead-in ramps caused the bolt on my Rooger to skip over certain chambers at the State Match on the first stage, thus ruining my thousand dollar weekend.

Remedy:

1. Polished 'speed bumps' out of mortise leads to eliminate places where bolt bounced.

2. Reshaped the bolt to angle the top surface resulting in more positive cylinder locking.  Also resulted in increased surface area on that part of bolt that stops cylinder.

3. Filed raised burrs flush and will monitor this location in the future for problems.

4. Used light machine oil in reassembly and only apply grease on ratchet, base pin, and cylinder extension (to help seal base pin from black powder fouling).

Once again, I've learned a complicated, difficult lesson about CAS gunz.   I once asked a pard how long it had taken him to sort out his gunz for playing this game.  He said, "ten years."  I think he was right.

Thanks again for all your ideas and encouragement.  Time will tell if my Roooogers are now more dependable.  I suspect they will be.  But, just to be safe, I ordered a pair of USFA gunz from Jim Finch.

[Fiddler Green]

This is consistent with most revolvers of the era. Not sure about your gun but the Colt fix is a net TP1818 from Dixie Gun Works.

Bruce