paper patch mould question

[buckskin billy]

if all goes right i'll be ordering my 44 -2 1/4 from c. sharps this coming week.
i'm saleing some land and while i have the money i want to get everything i'll need to load for this expensive caliber.
i'll be making a order to buffalo arms for moulds, dies, brass, top punches, ect.
i want to shoot paper patch bullets as well. this is uncharted territory for me.
i have been reading a bunch of info on this, and my little ole brain is in melt down over all the info i'm reading.
so whats up with adjustable moulds. new ground for me. what is adjustable on it. i would assume the length which would also change the weight.
from my research i have found that shiloh and c.sharps barrels for the 44's are .446 groove diameter and .438 bore diameter. rate of twist for shilohs barrels are 1 in 19 and in the c.sharps badger barrels its 1 in 18.
so my question i guess would be. is that set in stone? is that enough info for me to go by when getting a paper patch mould. or would i do better if i rat hole some money for the paper patch mould until i get the rifle in my grubby paws.
my dealing have only been in casting groove bullets so my next question may be a little silly for some you you hivernants. is there a special sizer for paper patch bullets. i see there are tapered bullets and straight bullets. i don't know which one i will use as of now. i'm a hunter and not a target shooter and most of my shooting will be inside 100 yards.

[john boy]

... or would i do better if i rat hole some money for the paper patch mould until i get the rifle in my grubby paws.

Billy, wait - get the rifle - slug it and then buy the 'stuff'

... is there a special sizer for paper patch bullets.

A good sizer for PP bullets is the Lee Lube Sizer.  It pushes the bullet through the die from the base of the bullet.  If you need a special size die, it can be ordered from Lee.  Now, write this down ... if you do order a Lee Lube Sizing die - order it 0.001 OVER the size of the bullet that you are going to size.  Their reamers are not dead nuts the size you ordered

i see there are tapered bullets and straight bullets.

Straight side bullets work just fine

[Yellowhouse Sam]

Get some brass from Jamisons before it disappears!!!!!!!!  Make sure that C. Sharps knows whose brass you are going to use so they can set proper headspace on your rifle.

Think I'd get the grease groove loading down before stepping off into PPB but it can be done.  RCBS mold 44-370 throws a perfect hunting style bullet and is available pre-molded by several vendors.

Tapered ppb are easier to chamber in a fouled barrel. 

[Ranch 13]

+1 with what Yellowhouse said.
That rcbs bullet is a good one and the one I have drops at .448 from 20-1.
When you get into paper patching you're going to want probably something along the lines of .431 diameter bullet, and hollow based. Check with Old West Moulds and Steve Brooks for those, BACO won't build a nose pour hollow base. Get your order into the papermill for their 9lb 100% cotton onionskin paper.
Powderburner (on cast bullets and bpcr .net) is running a brand new bull barrelled 44-77 from shiloh and really liking the Jamison brass and Goex 1f powder. And is reporting some very good results with KIK 2f as well.

[buckskin billy]

thanks for the info fellows.
  i placed  my order last thursday for the c. sharps. it should be  here in about 8 weeks.
i have decieded to hold off on ordering anything until i get the gun in hand. my plan was to get the rcbs mould as mention. i read about it in a article written by mike venturino some time back he did on 44 caliber rifles. i have been casting bullets for about 10 years and have cast bullets for my 45-70 el-cheapo sharps. so i have that experence, just no dealings with the paper patch.
i'm glad it was brought up about the brass. i have seen alot written on jamison brass. i have also seen on buffalo arms web site brass for different sharps. original and shiloh, but nothing on the c. sharps. i was going to  ask when i order what i should get.
so now this has brought up another question. are these brass made by jamison a limitted run? what happens in years ahead when the brass i buy now have become worn out and there are no more jamison brass left?

[buckskin billy]

well i went back and looked at buffalo arms again and saw that there are brass made for c.sharps

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,8405.html

so i guess that will be my choice on brass. i don't understand why the brass are made different from one company to next. i know my 45-70 will chamber remington brass with ease as well as federal, but on other brass of different makes i have noticed some are tighter fitting and harder to close the action on with the first reloading. i guess it is the same with the 44 2 1/4

[Ranch 13]

I think this Jamison brass will be around for a good long while. They're listed as one of their top sellers on their web site.
When we raised the ruckus that got them to produce this brass, and they started shipping to us, BACO jumped in and tried to get 5000. They couldn't give them 5000 from the first run , but as I understand it BACO agreed to take some from the second run. So based on all that it should be around for quite sometime. There have been several 44-77's ordered from Shiloh since this brass has become available. Powderburner reports this brass a real good stuff, he has ran it in 2 brand new Shilohs so far.
Would probably be good to get some and visit with John about whether or not you should send him a couple so he can be sure and get the rim recess correct for it.
In some ways I wish I had of ordered this rifle from C Sharps, but I already have C Sharps so wanted a Shiloh.... another few months and maybe there'll be something fun to report.

[rustyrelx]

On the 45-70 fitting tight: I have several of them and got to looking closer to see what the issue was. I found rim diameters all over the place with newer brass. So I "miked" all my rifles and segregated the brass into the different sizes for the different rifles. AND I separated the brass as to correct length of each chamber, not "book" but actual chamber from the rifle,.  Now I have a green box of ammo for each 45-70.       Don

[Yellowhouse Sam]

Old rifles vary in headspacing and the ammo made back when did also to an extent.  There are no SAAMI standards for these old cartridges you see.  Until Jamison made 44-77 they were making them from .348 Win brass and designated for modern and original.  The distinction being rim thickness....about .068 vs. 078 or so....and thats enough to cause real problems.  I'm tickled pink over the uniformity of the brass Jamison makes.

The other problem was that neck thickness varied.  Here's an example, in my original roller I cannot chamber the RCBS 44-370 using reformed .348 or necked up .43 Spanish cause the necks are too blasted thick.  Yeah, I could size down that .446 bullet but then you see it has to bump up to the .451 groove typical of the old rifles that were designed to shoot PPB.  With the proper brass Jamison makes I can make it run with either gg or pp.

Knowing the dimensions of your chamber, neck thickness, bullet diam, and paper thickness is also critical to building a workable load.  It ain't rocket science but you need to know what you're working with before you buy an expensive mold or brass you can't use.  Like Don said, a mold with a .432 diam bullet will very likely work for you because todays barrel specs are pretty much standard.  Its not that way with vintage rifles.

What I'm saying is do your homework on all this.  Brass from Jamisons is not cheap but its cheaper than BACO.  Give the folks at Sharps a call and tell them what brass you'll be using.  You might save a lot of money and considerable headache.

[buckskin billy]

man i'm learning alot of new stuff here. i have been reloading for 20 years. mostly black powder pistol size cartridges and modern day hunting rounds.
  i sent c sharps a email last night and they responded this morning. john with c sharps said they will head space there rifles for reformed  348 win. brass unless i want something different and i'll have to send out what i want.
so it sounds like from what i'm reading here from you fellers who have already covered this ground is that jamison brass is the way to go. they are more uniformed. that was my concern with using reformed brass the fact it is made to fit the caliber instead of made for that caliber.
i will get the jamison and save myself a head ache

[Yellowhouse Sam]

I think you'll have a more harmonious outcome with Jamisons.

BTW, a few of us are waiting very patiently for our Shilohs in 44-77 and have quite a while to go yet.  You say in eight weeks?  What model did you order, 1874 or 75? 

[buckskin billy]

i ordered a model 74 bridgeport with a military stock 30 inch standard weight barrel full buck horn rear site and a blade front. it is basically plain jane.
i checked with shiloh and they told me a 18 to 20 month wait. i unfortuately  was not blessed with the patience yall have. almost two years is just too long for me to wait. i would had gladly waited 6 months.
  i kicked all of this around for quiet awhile and when c. sharps told me 8 weeks, that made my mind up right away.
i have one of those iab el cheapo sharps in a 45-70. i would like to have a 50-70 or a 50-90 still trying to make my mind up on that, but i'm thinking maybe this next year ordering a hartford from shiloh in one of those calibers. i can learn patience while i'm shooting my 44 2 1/4

[rustyrelx]

So then why not just have your "el cheapo" rebarreled? Rebarreling has been done for years. .50cal,.44cal whatever you want. Theres good gunsmiths out there willing to take on most projects. Barrels can be got made by Green Mtn or Badger or Dougles, pickout your fancy. Chamber reamers can be rented so thats not an issue.
To clarify on what I had said about 45-70, note that I said diameters on rim thickness. Also note that rim thickness is a lot closer in tolerance. It just depends on what brass you are using. I was very much surprised at the wildly different rim diameters. Note I'm talking brass only. Chambers is another story..   Don  rustyrelx

[buckskin billy]

on the 45-70 that fit tight some will chamber with a little persuasion, but it will almost always shave a little brass off when doing so. that really bothers me, so i set them brass to the side. i have felt like it was from the rim thickness varying from one brand to the next. my dad taught me years ago to use the same name brand of  brass for one gun. i'm sure this was what he was meaning.
i got the 45 70 earlier this year and had some friends who don't reload give me a bag of brass, of different name brand. after experencing the problems i went back and seperated brass by brand. remington and federal give me no troubles.
on the el cheapo sharps i have a friend that is a cabinent builder and a durn fine muzzle loader builder. he makes some nice stocks.
we have been talking about turning the el cheapo into a gemmer. the el cheapo has a round barrel so i plan to have it re barreled for a octagon. but i must first recover my pocket book on this c.shaps and the new reloading equipment to go with it