Black Powder shotguns, when did the forcing cones change?

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy the fire,

I've got a number of CAS scatterguns.  Most shoot very well with black powder loads and Circle Fly "natural" wads.  Of course, most of my scatterguns are old.  I've also got a couple of newer ones that shoot better patterns with plastic wads.

So, when was the cutoff from the shorter forcing cones designed for Holy Black to the longer forcing cones used in modern guns?  I have 311s in 20ga, 16ga and 12ga.  They have definitely different preferences in their load columns.

Thanks,

DD-DLoS

[Cuts Crooked]

Just a SWAG, late 1960s.......that's seems to be when plastic shot cups really began to take off. Until then most shot shells at the local hardware store were still card&cushion types. I could be way off there, but like I said, it was a SWAG.

[Professor Marvel]

My Dear DD-

We know that muzzleloaders clearly would not need or desire such a feature which would only be useful on breechloaders. We can surmise that a forcing cone would not have been necessary with brass shotshells. Since we have had "star crimped" paper shells for a very long time, I began my search with that in mind.

Purusing my sources on early fowlers and shot-guns, whilst providing some entertaining reading vis-a-vis the development of chokes et al proved fruitless regarding the early development of forcing cones on breechloading shotguns.

So with that approach exhausted, I turned my attention to the tried and true patent search! While I found no specifics for a patent on actual chamber modifications, I was able to turned up the following which can at least form a start and shed some small illumination upon the object of your desire:

We can see from this patent for paper shotgun shells
Patent number: 270996
Filing date: Sep 5, 1882

that an extended chamber to accommodate the fired shell was common.
to quote a portion:

"Heretofore in, chambering the breech end of the barrels of fowling-pieces
for the reception of the cartridge-case a common practice has been to create
a swell in the bore in front of the cartridge-case, which gradually vanishes
in the bore proper. By this means an enlargement or space exists in front of
the cartridge-shell ..."

Whilst this patent is for a paper shell with a tapered mouth so as to make a smooth
transition, we at least see that the "longer chamber" is in common practice.

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=1nlzAAAAEBAJ&dq=270996


Other crimp tool patents as late as 1884 show alternatives to a roll, but no discussion of lengthening the chamber
Patent number: 301179
Filing date: May 14, 1884

by 1890 we numerous patents for crimp improvements that look similar to a  "star crimp" which might *imply* modifications to the chamber to accommodate it.

finally we can see from the chamber diagram for this patent Patent number: 1028430
filed in 1912 that a tapered forcing cone after the chamber had already been in common use.

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=pGFgAAAAEBAJ&dq=1028430

thus we can surmise that a conical chamber extension must have been developed sometime between 1882 and much prior to 1912 . Clearly further research is needed. If you can find a clear date when the longer star-style crimp was used on paper shells then you will most likely have your answer.

hope this helps
yhs
prof marvel

[R. Flux]

Prof Marvel:
Excellent research!  My hats off.
~R.Flux

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks for the research and the answers.

There was a definite change in the forcing cone when manufacturers went from fiber wads to plastic wads.  The older forcing cones were shorter and steeper while the newer ones, made with plastic wads in mind, were longer and more gradual.  I'm not talkin' about chokes here, but the area directly ahead of the opened shell where the barrel tapers to it's long dimension.

I've got some old shotguns that thrive on fiber wads and some others that don't do as well with them.  I have newer ones that shoot very good patterns with plastic wads but get erratic patterns with fiber wads.  I'm thinkn' that the problem is in the forcing cones.  So, what I'm looking for is the approximate time when shotgun makers switched to the longer forcing cones designed for plastic wads.  Cuts may be on to something here.

Prof, I'm thinkn' that your research indicates the origin of forcing cones, not their change over due to the introduction of the all plastic wads.  I appreciate your effort.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

Dick, I found out to my dismay that the longer forcing cones in my 20 ga SXS would not allow a decent pattern with brass shells and a fiber wad column. I went to a nitro card, fiber wad, plastic shot cup and an over powder card. I worked fairly well but was like putting an outboard motor on a birch bark canoe. I quit the brass shell and went back to total plastic. Worked by far the best with that gun. When I went to 12 I checked the forcing cones and have never messed with the old style wad column with it.
I's say any thing after 1950-60 would be suspect.

[Dick Dastardly]

That's what I'm beginning to think Noz.

I picked up a very nice original Winchester 97 in 12ga that was made in 1916.  I'll be heading for the patterning board with it.  I'm thinkn' that that gun will handle bp loads with all natural wads very well.  Tests will tell, one way or the other.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

Do a roll crimp or brass shells. They seem to work better than a star crimp for fiber wad columns.

[Professor Marvel]

Thanks for the research and the answers.

... what I'm looking for is the approximate time when shotgun makers switched to the longer forcing cones designed for plastic wads.  Cuts may be on to something here.

Prof, I'm thinkn' that your research indicates the origin of forcing cones, not their change over due to the introduction of the all plastic wads.  I appreciate your effort.

DD-DLoS

Heavens, My Dear Netizens -
I seem to have focussed on the title more than understanding the actual question, and thus find myself in the position of the Microsoft Help Desk - I provided an answer  (while entertaining and enjoyable to research) that  is technically correct but essentially useless 

DD you and Cuts are correct, the transition to plastic cup shot wads occurred right about 1960 with the patent (in 1960) and the advent of the Winchester Western "Mark V plastic shot wrapper" which rapidly replaced the fiber wad, thus as you surmised, the new modifications  to the forcing cone past the chamber would have been at or after that time.

your red-faced scrivener
prof marvel

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Prof,

I appreciate all your efforts, both on the origin and the change in forcing cones.

Now, I have to find out where I can look up the manufacturing date for my scatterguns based on serial numbers.  That one should be easier.

DD-DLoS

[Cookie]

Dick, I found out to my dismay that the longer forcing cones in my 20 ga SXS would not allow a decent pattern with brass shells and a fiber wad column. I went to a nitro card, fiber wad, plastic shot cup and an over powder card. I worked fairly well but was like putting an outboard motor on a birch bark canoe. I quit the brass shell and went back to total plastic. Worked by far the best with that gun. When I went to 12 I checked the forcing cones and have never messed with the old style wad column with it.
I's say any thing after 1950-60 would be suspect.

That's very informative Noz, thanks! 

[Cuts Crooked]

Also of note: Running on faulty memory here, I seem to recall that sometime in the early 70s that I started seeing adverts for smiith work to lengthen forcing cones on older scatter guns. This was a very popular bit of gunsmithing with hunters at that time, trying to take advantage of the new hunting loads with plastic shot cups.  I  also recall that many hunters were slow to make the change over, waiting until the old fiber wad loads simply weren't available any more.

I'm pretty sure it was a gradual thing with both manufactures of guns, who wanted to be sure the new shell technology was accepted by the masses, and with shooters who can be very conservative by nature... "It's worked for years dagummit! Why mess with a good thing?"

[Pettifogger]

October 17, 1962 at about 3:00 p.m. Eastern Standard time.

[Dick Dastardly]

Larsen, you've got a mind like a steel trap.  So, what's your source for that precise time.  You'll note I said precise, not accurate. hehehehehe.

DD-DLoS

[hellgate]

My understanding is the older short cone guns were designed for the thicker paper hulls whose mouths are not skived/tapered. Also the card over powder wads have no ability to swell and seal laterally. An abrupt transition from chamber to barrel favored the card & felt wad column by preventing blow by of the powder gases. With the advent of the plastic cases with tapered mouths suddenly there is a space around the wad column as it leaves the hull but the cup shaped over powder portions of the wads could expand and seal the pressure.  In the short throated chambers the modern ammo has to choke down as it leaves the hull and the shooter will feel more recoil. If you are a trap shooter that goes through a hundred rounds or so, it will get noticed so the back boring/longer tapered throat was easier on the shoulder and fine for the one piece plastic wads that had a better gas sealing ability. I NEVER use a card OP wad in a plastic hull with tapered or thin walls because of the blow by that occurs due to either swaging of the card wad as it is seated onto the powder or blowing past the wad column in the thinner walled non tapered plastic hulls. I frequently use a fiber wad column but always with a plastic cup shaped OP wad that will seal as the charge reaches the mouth of the hull and the tapered throat. I haven't had a "floofer" since I started using the cupped plastic OP seals. Sometimes I will buy double ended brush wads and cut off the ends to get two OP wads out of each wad.

[Fairshake]

DD, It started when the Shotgun shells went to 2 3/4 from 2 1/2. A shell's length is given in it's new unloaded length. A 2 3/4 hull is only about 2 1/4 in in it's unfired state. The clay bird shooters also believed that a long throat not only allowed for longer hulls but produced less felt recoil. I have loaded the brass hulls with the short plastic wads intended for the 2 1/2 paper hulls and had good results. Just make sure you have some Windex W/vinegar to clean the barrels. The barrel will have what appears to be a shed snake skin come out the end after using the Windex with a brush. I also use this wad in my cut down STS and Nitro 27 hulls for SASS kd's. I was just told at the Louisiana State Championship that when I step up with my gun that they will fall hard. Much better groups than when I used the paper wads.

[fourfingersofdeath]

I've got to get a block of Cerro Safe and do some chamber casts!