1887 BP loads in plastic shells

[TomBullweed]

I just picked up an original 1887 Winchester in 12 gage.  I plan on shooting only BP or BP-subs.  The only 2-5/8" or 2-1/2" brass shells that I have found are made for large pistol primers.  I want better ignition.  I wnat to use regular shotshell relaoding equipment.
Has anyone tried cutting regular low-brass shells to 2-5/8" and loading them:
- 75 grains BP
- plastic hull (to be determined) trimmed 3/32" below the top edge of the trimmed hull
- 1 ounce of shot
- over shot wad sealed in place with 2-part epoxy

The positives (above using brass shells) are: can use regular 12-gage wads, can try different wads, larger ignition than pistol primer and excellent use for older hulls.

I am eager to hear anyone's opinion on this less-than standard task.

[Jubal Starbuck]

  I used to have an original 1887  Winchester shotgun I loaded  short black powder shells for.  I just took my Dremel tool with a cut-off wheel in it and shortened up my plastic cases, then primed them and loaded them with 2fg black powder, whatever wads I had at the time and shot charge, followed by an overshot card wad.  I put a small board in my vise on my workbench, clamped an antique hand roll crimper for 12 guage to the board, inserted my loaded shell and roll crimped my plastic shell.  Worked like a charm and I don't recall ever having a feed problem with them.  Ballistic Products Inc. marketed a roll crimper designed to be used in a drill also.  I got one, but liked the old fashioned way better, as it is kind of fun to roll crimp them with the old tool and it does a good job.  There are old roll crimpers  to be found around gun shows, antique shops, etc..  I didn't re-use my shells after firing.  Hope this is of some help.

Regards,

Jubal Starbuck

[john boy]

The only 2-5/8" or 2-1/2" brass shells that I have found are made for large pistol primers.  I want better ignition.

Tom, Federal GM150 - LP Match are one of the better primers igniting original gunpowder.  Many BPCR shooters use them, including myself.  BP ignites around 460F and one wants to use a primer for low brisance

[Wills Point Pete]

 The downside to plastic, aside from the pain in the kazoo of cutting the cases down and finding a roll crimper, is that they don't last. One, maybe two loads and the case is toast. It's too bad we can't hardly find paper shells, they stand up to black better.

There is, as noted above, no problem lighting real black with LP primers. Some of the subs require a hotter primer but not black.

The real solution, for those who wish to use modern shotgun primers and standard sized wads is the brass shells from Rocky Mountain Cartridge. These brass shells, unlike the ones from Mag Tech, take standard wads. They are kind of pricey but they are so thick that they're downright indestructable. As one would think, being standard size on both the outside and inside but solid brass instead of paper or plastic.

Again, I have never had any trouble using Large Pistol primers with real black. The only subs I ever tried were 777 and Pyrodex. I shall not use them again, the Pryro was my first try, I wasn't happy with it because I shot it on a day when it started to rain and my shotgun had flash rust by the time I got home. The 777 worked but it's too expensive per pound. It's okay for someone who lives in a town where black is prohibited, I reckon. Me? I'd move.

Anyhow, check out www.rockymountaincartridge.com It might just be what you're looking for.

[fourfingersofdeath]

I have always understood that a drawn case would always be a lot stronger than one machined from solid. The drawn or forged metal would have a better grain flow opposed to the one direction grain of the rolled bar. Probably not a sizeable difference at these low pressures.

$US68 for 20 cases. Wanna be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than Magtec. They would be a lot heavier and would drop out of the gun nicely. How do they seal off with BP and their thick sides? They sound good and would be excellent for  ahunter who only needs a box or so at anyone time. When you want to load up 100 or so, you are talking serious dollars.

[litl rooster]

I don't understand the shot wad sealed with epoxy?

Some of my Pards here have been successful in drilling out the primer vents on the Magtec hulls and using 209 primers. I have yet to have a Large Pistol primer issue in them, fine print here> As long as I use Federal Primers.


I do load plastic hulls for both my Reproduction 87 and my wifes 97 using the Holy Black. Using 70 grains of ffg and nitro card a greased felt wad and a ounce or better of shot da jour.  Which you will find chamber better than brass does in the 87.  I annealed and rolled some brass also and it was slightly better. Still not worth the effort. Plastic was the way to go. If you have a skeet or trap range near you you may find the shorter plastic hulls with out all the trim work on the 23/4" hulls.


Just my 2cents worth

[Dick Dastardly]

A band saw makes short easy accurate work of shortening plastic hulls.  I do a hundred at a time with no strain.  More if needed.

http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?

The RCT12 at the bottom of the page for $11.99 does a fine job of roll crimping your 12ga black powder loads.  I use a bench top drill press that I bought from Northern Wholesale for $40 to chuck the roll crimper in and I use a MEC Super Sizer to hold my loads square and plumb while I spin down a roll crimp.  Again, quick and easy.  I get many comments on the appearance of my roll crimped shot shells.  Also, the roll crimp holds tighter till your charge of Holy Black gets goin' in the furnace.

Circle Fly wads do all my wad columns and overshot work.

Enjoy that 87.

FWIW, mine's a 10ga and there's no option but to cut down 3.5" hulls. . . .

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

If you do glue your wads, the 2 part epoxy is overkill. A hot glue gun, DUCO cement or waterglass are all better choices. Get the waterglass at your local pharmacy. It is the traditional wad glue and still works quite well.

Take a piece of 3/4" inch pipe, cut to length, drive empty shot shell into pipe, with sharp knife cut shell to length. Cheap, easy and as accurate as you need to be. 

I have the roll crimp attachment for a drill press. I hold the shells with a scrap of heavy leather to roll the crimp on.

[Springfield Slim]

Regular plastic wads don't work in the thinner brass shell, you need to go up a size. I do like Noz except I use a PVC pipe for the cutting guide. I have a couple antique roll crimpers and they work great.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Here is my re-discovery of the JAM-ROLL CRIMP. 

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=4628.0;highlight=jam+roll+crimp

[TomBullweed]

Wow!!  Great responses.  Thanks everyone for replying as I knew that Cowboy's would. 
My plan is to start out trimming plastic hulls.  I do not plan to shoot the gun often.  Our local shooters mostly toss there factory-loaded hulls so I should have a good supply.
The brass hulls will be Plan B if this 1887 turns out to be more fun than I am anticipating.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Tom,

Anticipate fun.  Those lever guns are great fun to shoot.  May not win many matches, but they are definitely "period correct".  Remember Judge Roy Bean's daughter in the saloon with the 87??

DD-DLoS

[Pony Racer]

Let me tell you about brass hulls and glue guns - dang I wish I started sooner.

I had some issues with using elmers after having no issues for a couple years (kinda of wonder if they changed their fomula...)

However, glue gun glue dries in like 20-30 minutes and stays rubbery keeping a sweet seal in hot or cold environments.

Brass hulls will not wear out and in about a year of shooting they quickly pay for themselves (magtechs - the rocky mountian ones are awesome but take longer to realize savings).

I shoot 209 primed brass shells but know many who shoot the pistol primed ones and they never have had issues. I you are worried about that - see if someone close by has a few they would let you try.  I shoot mine out of a 1887 repro and it works lickity split!

Free plastic hulls are cheap but I like Brass!  One of these days I am going to get a 1897 pump and get the brass shells just right to run out of them.

The bark of BP, smoke, fire andstank and the sound of the shells ejecting is quite awesome!!

[TomBullweed]

Just got my 1887 through GunBroker.  This migh be fun than I initially thought.
I tried to cut some 2-3/4" plastic hulls to 2-1/2" and found that I was still in the crimp.  Now, I have been shooting and reloading since Reagan started running the country right, but I never imagined that a 2-3/4" shell was really 2-3/8" after loading.  I believe that this blows the whole need for special shells since the early rolled paper or brass shells actually were 2-1/2" after loading.  I tested this theory by sucessfully cycling some regular 2-3/4" shells.

Can someone explain why I need to do anything more than load regular 2-3/4" shells with 70gr FFG through the regular shotshell process on my Lee Loader???

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Some say;

1.  That little bit of extra plastic opens up to cause an obstruction at the forcing cone of the chamber, and you shouldn't do it.

2.  Others say, wat da he!!, it worked once, why not over-&-over again?

I don't take the risk because 2 1/2 inch shells are easy to make with my "Jam-roll" technique. (see my post above.)

Still others caution against re-chambering because it thins the barrel just at the point where the outside of the barrel tapers down..

It's your gun, etc., etc.

[Pettifogger]

Just got my 1887 through GunBroker.  This migh be fun than I initially thought.
I tried to cut some 2-3/4" plastic hulls to 2-1/2" and found that I was still in the crimp.  Now, I have been shooting and reloading since Reagan started running the country right, but I never imagined that a 2-3/4" shell was really 2-3/8" after loading.  I believe that this blows the whole need for special shells since the early rolled paper or brass shells actually were 2-1/2" after loading.  I tested this theory by sucessfully cycling some regular 2-3/4" shells.

Can someone explain why I need to do anything more than load regular 2-3/4" shells with 70gr FFG through the regular shotshell process on my Lee Loader???

Shotgun shells are measured at their fired length, not their loaded length.

[Fairshake]

Tombullweed, The Magtech hulls are less than 2 1/2 in long as new. Measure a factory loaded Federal hull and you find that it measures only 2.35 inches. As Pettifogger posted a 2 3/4 hull is that measurement before loading and crimping. I shoot a 1887 copy from Coyote Cap. I have enjoyed this shotgun very much and it is my favorite cowboy gun. The brass hulls are easy to load and shoot but if you try to load two they are heavy and cause problems. You can look at Precision Reloading for what you need. They sell a hull trimmer that is sold as two pieces. A wooden box and a hull holder. You can as I do use STS, Nitro 27, AA or any other good hull. I trim the old crimp off of them which gives me a hull of 2.35 I load a plastic wad sold by Precision that is meant for the old English SXS. It is called the TUWG1412. You are working with a short case and 60-65 grs of 2F will work. I can get close to 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot in. Precision also sells a very good roll crimper that has 4 rollers inside that give factory like crimps. Buy some over shot wads and place them over the shot before crimping. To clean your bbl use Windex with Vinegar  don't buy the one with ammonia only the factory made one with vinegar. Spray it down the bbl until it drips out and then push a paper towel or brush down and a long looking snakeskin will fall out your bbl. Follow with Your Moosemilk to clean up the BP residue. The 87 is easy to clean as it is all one piece. with the moosemilk you can spray the heck out of it because if any is left it is oil and will not hurt your gun. Later David   " 87's Forever "

[TomBullweed]

Here's my loads for tonight:
- Remington Green hulls hand trimmed 1/4" to leave some material to roll crimp
- 3.4cc (approx. 50 grains by volume) of APP FFG
- Winchester 12sl wad inserted and press checked
- 7/8" shot (4.0cc Lee spoon)
- overshot wad made of poster board (pretty red to go with the green hull)
- roll crimped with a Lee Loader to 2-3/8, regular 2-3/4" loaded shell length
This left about 3/8" diameter of the card visible.
I found that my 87 would shuck the empty hulls cut to this length.  Untrimmed they hung on the chamber long enough to prevent ejection.
I am going to try these Saturday, first in in my magnum-rated Stoeger SxS. 
Please let me know if anyone of you experts thinks this might be a bad idea.  Thanks.

[Montana Slim]

My Pa's 1887 chamber has been opened up by someone in the past..and a nice smooth job at that....so, we took it out & shot a box of my standard 2 3/4" cowboy BP shells one afternoon and broke some clay birds.

My loads consist of 80 gr FF + overpowder wad + 1/2" fiber cushion wad, plus lube (crisco) + 1 1/8 ox of #7 1/2 shot. This is loaded in a Winchester AA or Remington GunClub hull. I whip-up around 500 rounds per year, just for cowboy matches.....so for speed & simplicity of loading I prefer a standard length plastic hull & star crimp.

The gun has the long barrel & some choke...forgive me for not recalling the specifics. But, it feeds 2 3/4" shells from the magazine into the chamber & ejects them nicely as well...even with only one extractor. I haven't extensively studied these shotguns, but am certain this one has a solid-steel barrel.

I came out pretty well on the deal, too as my Pa didn't have need for his "imitation" 1887, which now resides with me.....

Regards,
Slim