Richards? Richards-Mason?

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Probably been asked a dozen times before but I'll be dipped if I can find it!
Can someone please explain the differences between a Richards and a Richards-Mason conversion?  I would assume that the Richards conversion came first, followed by the R-M.  Does one have an advantage over the other? 
Thanks in advance.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The main difference is the way the ejector housing is mounted on the barrel lug. 

The Richards was first, as you guessed.  The ejector was a weirdly shaped item that fit into the rammer hole.

Then Mason, a clever engineer at Colt, redesigned it so it used an existing screw hole in the lug, and was easier to make and attach to the side of the lug. 

I can't see any reason that one works better than the other.  There were some other changes, but I can't recall what they were.  I claim "oldtimers disease"!

[River City John]

I believe the Richards still used the hammer notch rear sight, and the Richards-Mason the rear site was on top the conversion plate.

[Coffinmaker]

River City John,

Close, Just backwards. Plus.  The Richards conversion had the rear sight as an integral part of the conversion ring and included a rebounding firing pin in the conversion ring as well.  The ejector assembly was a cast part that fit into the rammer hole in the frame and was fairly costly to manufacture.
The Richards-Mason retained the rear sight at the top of the hammer with a relocated firing pin, also mounted in the hammer face.  The barrel assembly was changed to incorporate an ejector assembly that simply screwed to the side of the barrel lug.
I personally prefer the 1st Model Richards conversions, but don't believe there is an advantage to either.  To my eye, the Richards is simply a "sexier" looking conversion. 
Currently, there are no 1st model Richards in production.  Several years ago there were 1st model Richards manufactured, however the manufacturer was Armi San Marco and build quality was terrible.  Only 1 in seven actually worked.
There were 4 1st Model Richards guns, manufactured by Armi San Marco for sale on Gun Broker recently by one of our own, but unfortunately, too close to Christmas for me or I'd have snapped 'em up.  Insufficient disposable funds on my end.
Hope this helps.

Coffinmaker

[River City John]

Thanks for straightening me around, Coffinmaker. 

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Thanks, all!

[Abilene]

Captain Fitzgerald,
Coffinmaker did a good job of describing the differences.  And by the way, Armi San Marco did make some models of the Richards conversion with the later style of ejector housing which simply screwed into the rammer screw hole.  Big problem with that style is that the mounting flange tended to break off of the ejector housing on the ASM guns.

One other conversion model not yet mentioned is the Richards Type II, also known as the Richards Transition model, which is currently produced by Uberti along with the Richards-Mason.  This model has the barrel of a Richards (with the ejector that has a welded-on mounting bracket which fits into the rammer slot below the barrel), but the frame and cylinder are the same as the Richards-Mason, with the hammer-mounted firing pin.

[Texas John Ringo]

Captain Fitzgerald,
Coffinmaker did a good job of describing the differences.  And by the way, Armi San Marco did make some models of the Richards conversion with the later style of ejector housing which simply screwed into the rammer screw hole.  Big problem with that style is that the mounting flange tended to break off of the ejector housing on the ASM guns.

One other conversion model not yet mentioned is the Richards Type II, also known as the Richards Transition model, which is currently produced by Uberti along with the Richards-Mason.  This model has the barrel of a Richards (with the ejector that has a welded-on mounting bracket which fits into the rammer slot below the barrel), but the frame and cylinder are the same as the Richards-Mason, with the hammer-mounted firing pin.

I have 2 of the ASM Richards conversions and one of the ejector housings  broke at the place you wrote about.
I welded it back and so far so good. But I wonder if one from a Uberti could be made to fit?
TJR

[Highlander999]

I have an ASM Richards in .38, and it shots fairly well, but I rarely shoot it after reading and hearing all of the problems.  It's now just a wall hanger.  I did put some "ivory" grips on it, had to fit them, and then aged them with tea and leather dye 

[rifle]

I've had the ASM Richards in the 44 Colt cal. and the Navy type grips since I guess it's supposed to be the 1861 Navy Model Richards. Wrong cal. for that gun. To me it's an 1860 Richards with the barrel a half inch short and the trigger guard and backstrap and grips of a Navy model with the cylinder(non rebated) of an 1872 Open Top.
Why Carlos San Marcos chose to leave the cylinder of the 1860 non rebared is beyond me.
The conversion plates for the ASM Richards don't enshoud or over lap the back of the cylinders either.
I think that maybe ASM called the guns the Richards Model because of the firing pin and rear sight he used.
Why go thru the trouble to design and manufacture a replica of an authentic Colt and make it the wrong way?
Anyway....both the ASM guns I've got I like PLENTY even with the istakes. I didn't like the "triggers" on either since they were so "light" they were dangerous. The hammer(tumbler)  and trigger(sear) had to have positive angle put to the full cock and trigger and rehardened.
I use smokeless powder and hardcast bullets and pure lead and black powder in the guns. They have held up very well with thousands of rounds fired.I think I had to add a dab of weld in the front of the arbors slots so the wedges could be tight after the guns "seated in".
Anyway....ASM had the right idea with the separate(not integral with the cylinder) cylinder bushing. It may not block all the black powder residue but....it's designed in such a way that the bottom of the barrels don't need milled away to make room for the bushing hence...no barrels cracked at the breech end even when using smokeless and hard cast bullets. Uberti should have been that savy in that area where they milled the barrels to make room for the bushing and got it too thin and cracked barrels can result.
If a gun has a cal. stamped on it and designed to fire ,and be warranted so, factory ammo it shouldn't get cracked barrels from the ammo. Cowboy Loads factory carries hard cast bullets and smokeless powder. The warranty of the Uberti doesn't state "black powder only" on the Open Tops or Richards Mason they manufacture. I figure because of the barrel problem with Uberti I'd say the ASM is the better gun even witsto 38 special I traded in for a gun that was the same but.....the new one had the separate piece cylinder bushing. Even though the origianl Richards didn't have cylinder bushings(the Open Tops did) it does make a difference in the ASM. The first gun without the bushing had a problem where as after the first shot the cylinder wanted to stay forward and drag and cause the gun to need assistance of the off hand to turn the cylinder to fire the second and rest of the rounds. I never did find what was holding the cylinder forward after the first shot. I planned to make a cylinder bushing for the gun but never did since I found a newer model for sale that had the bushing already.It's strange type of problem. The cap&ballers only do that type of thing in certain cases when they are accidently dry fired. The cylinders can stay forward. When firing a chamber with black powder the cylinders work as normal. Anyways...the cylinder bushings seem to be needed in the Richards or Richards Masons so the cylinder don't stay forward and drag after the first shot.....but.......the 44 Colt Model ASM I've got has no bushing and never did and it functions fine.  Figure that out. I still don't quite understand what's at play when the cylinders stick forward. I though maybe the rear was digging in on the edge but...if the cylinder is turned it stays stuck towards the cylinder. neve did figure the cause out. I did figure the cylinder bushing stops the problem in the Richards.

[Smokin Gun]

I been calllin' mine an 1861 Colt Navy Pietta w/ 5 1/2" special order bbl. konversion to .38spl...
Can't wait to shoot it... I got a box a 500ea 148gr HBWC lead today and 500 small pistol primers at $3.95 per 100. Found Russian made on the shelf boxes of a 1000. Good to see the shelves stockefd up some again.




I gotta let this Southpaw a mine heal some for I try it...but the will is there :O)
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/2010%20Summer/1861ColtNavyKonverted5.jpg

Anyway I got a feelin' this gonna be a field carry for some time...