Springfield trapdoor

Regret Chancy · March 22, 2010, 07:45:24 PM

I know that these were more commonly considered as a military arm but would they also be considered a buffalo rifle? I picked one of these up at the gunshow over the weekend for about 600 less than msrp. I wouldnt hesitate to use it on large game with the proper ammo but thought that this may be the best place to look for advice from those with more experience. Any thoughts, warnings, or advice welcome and very much appreciated, RC

Delmonico · March 22, 2010, 07:49:48 PM

Most likely more of the older 50-70's were used, a lot of the older models were surplussed as newwer ones came about. That is what Bill Cody used hunting for the Kansas Pacific RR.

Short Knife Johnson · March 23, 2010, 09:18:21 AM

It's my understanding that Trapdoors were used early on in the buffalo hunt. Bill Cody did use one. A .50-70 he named Lucretia Borgatia (correct me if I'm wrong on spelling the name). The rifle was broken in half at one point and the portion forward of the wrist of the stock resides in the Buffalo Bill Museum, and the butts whereabouts remain unknown. The plaque at the musuem stated he recalled the location of the rifle to his family on his deathbed, and said he didn't know what became of the butt end of the rifle. It was very erie to see this rifle so venerated looking so forlorn and abused among all of the mint condition Winchesters, Sharps', Remingtons, Henrys, and countless other designs. I wish I'd taken a few pictures of it. But I'm heading down there is a few weeks hopefully, so this time I'll take one of two and post them.

There are some shooters who trick out their Trapdoors with set triggers, decent sights, etc., that are shooting BPCR Silhouette, and at the Quigley match in Forsyth MT. Apparently, they do not too bad.

ndnchf · March 23, 2010, 12:07:30 PM

I agree, the .50-70s (M1866, through M1870) were only in use for a short time by the army before they were superceded by the .45-70 models. A good number of them were used by civilians on the frontier. The good thing for us today is that many of the .50-70s show up in very nice shape due to their limited use. Many have excellent bores. I have a M1868 .50-70 with an excellent bore that I shoot regularly. I also have a couple M1866 barreled actions, both with excellent bores.

The .50-70 was one of the most popular buffalo hunting catridges used, at least in the early years of the hunt. It really is a great cartridge.

Ranch 13 · March 23, 2010, 02:10:28 PM

There is a fair chance there were a few of the 45-70 trapdoors being used by civilians, as they were allotted to civilians for shooting matches etc. Milton Farrow spoke of using one to shoot a buffalo on his trip out thru the Dakotas and Montana on an advertising junket for Marlin/Ballard.
But there were tons of the surplus 50-70's out and about, and buffalo hunters could get an allotment of ammunition from nearby military posts if they could demonstrate the couldn't buy any.

Regret Chancy · March 23, 2010, 07:19:05 PM

The one I bought is a replica Navy Arms import in 45/70 carbine. Due to cancer surgeries and complications my pectoral muscles were used to rebuild my neck, it makes the enjoyment of my Sharps replicas next to impossible to support without a rest in hunting situations so I figgered to try this out for awhile and from initial handling and offhand standing shooting at 50 to 75 yards was much better for my situation. Thanks for the info and if I can ever return the favor just give me a holler, RC

Short Knife Johnson · April 22, 2010, 03:20:47 PM

Here is a photo of Bill Cody's .50-70 Trapdoor when I was in the Buffalo Bill Historical Center a few days ago. The photo is horrible I know, but there wasn't really much I could do. Must have taken 15 photos, and this was the best one. The lighting in the alcove where she is on display is pretty bad.

Montana Slim · April 22, 2010, 05:15:50 PM

Right. As I recall reading:

Bill loaned his rifle to one of them fancy-foreign-dudes to kill a shaggy. The dude dropped the rifle after shooting the bull & broke the stock off in the process.

Slim

Short Knife Johnson · April 23, 2010, 08:29:37 AM

I've seen the same thing happen when guys are out hunting with four-wheelers. When they try to thread it between two trees with the rifle slung across their back (even thought they aren't supposed to be doing that)... voila! A take-own Model 70, 700 Remington, etc...

Montana Slim · April 28, 2010, 05:27:23 PM

Quote from: Short Knife Johnson on April 23, 2010, 08:29:37 AM
I've seen the same thing happen when guys are out hunting with four-wheelers. When they try to thread it between two trees with the rifle slung across their back (even thought they aren't supposed to be doing that)... voila! A take-own Model 70, 700 Remington, etc...

Ouch..that has to hurt !

Slim

Short Knife Johnson · April 29, 2010, 08:19:26 AM

Yeah, that would not be counted as a good day. But that's why they make rifle boots and scabbards.

To what ndnchf said about the short service life of the .50-70 as a military round. I understand it and the .44 Colt share the distinction of having the shortest standard issue span of any military round. That was most likely due to the leaps and bounds that firearm development was taking at the time.

Trailrider · April 29, 2010, 12:40:53 PM

If you look at the dimensions of the .56-50 Spencer rimfire and the .50-70 Gov't central fire, you can see the latter was a natural progression. That it was longer and more powerful was due to the fact that the 2nd Model Allin Conversions of the .58 cal. muzzleloaders to .50-70 Gov't provided a longer receiver than was possible with the Spencer. It was a fairly simple matter to go from rimfire to internally-primed centerfire as the cases were of similar materials, "copper", or more correctly, "gilding metal".

Reducing the diameter of the bullet from .50 to .45 caliber was the next step, with the cal. .45, 405 gr. bullet having better sectional density (weight per cross sectional area) than the 450 gr. .50, and less recoil than with the same powder charge due to the lighter bullet. The .45-70-405 also had a slightly faster muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory.

The .50-70, although superseded by the .45-70, nevertheless was still around for quite a few years, even in the Army. Ammo was plentiful, and a number of units at the various posts retained a small number of .50-70 Sharps carbines or M1868 Springfield rifles (depending on whether the post was primarily cavalry or infantry in manning), which were used for target practice, foraging, and for issue to civilian employees of the Quartermaster Dept. (teamsters, packers, scouts, etc.) who were in the field with the troops. Due to budget cuts, troops in the 1874 - 1876 period were only authorized 3 round per man per month for such activities. But there were over 50,000 rounds of .50-70 and five (5) Sharps carbines at Sidney Barracks, NE, for example. Enlisted personnel were also authorized to buy the .50-70 ammo for 2-1/2 cents per round.

As far as the .44 Colt's being a short-lived pistol cartridge, the 44/100 Smith & Wesson (aka .44 American) was probably not far behind as a U.S. military round.

Ranch 13 · April 29, 2010, 12:58:22 PM

Quote from: Trailrider on April 29, 2010, 12:40:53 PM

Reducing the diameter of the bullet from .50 to .45 caliber was the next step, with the cal. .45, 405 gr. bullet having better sectional density (weight per cross sectional area) than the 450 gr. .50, and less recoil than with the same powder charge due to the lighter bullet. The .45-70-405 also had a slightly faster muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory.

Sometimes tho things might not always be what we think.
Here's the cartridges Peabody rifles were chamber in in 1865 and presented to the Army for the new service rifle trials, in which they were the favorite. Sorta puts a new slant on how Springfield came up with the 45-70 and makes a feller say hmmmm