open top base pin wiggles

[Smokin Gun]

Delmar,the nips need shortened since they would drag on the new lil backplate. The safety pins,if you have any on that gun,drag too.
All in all if you can see how close the capped nips are to the recoil shield and tell they won't recoil back and hit it and chainfire I guess you could shoot the gun.
I have that pic in a file. I'm not a puter guy. How do I get it on edit -copy to get it here and edit-paste it?

Rifle you do it the same way except use the IMG selection to copy and paste it in the reply here from your Image Shack.
Pics of your steel shield on brass fame.

[delmar]

I have a pair of 20+ year old brass framed 51's that don't show that kind of battering. I suspect it is because the fore and aft movement of the cylinder on the arbor of each of mine is minimal. If there is too much end space, the cylinder can get slammed into that bushing causing the problem shown. If the cylinder is supported by the bushing, already against it, the rearward pressure will be absorbsed by your hand with the bushing doing nothing more than to help pass it on that way. Brass or steel framed, it makes no difference, a correctly fitted arbor and wedge will go along way into reducing the cylinder gap unless there are other issues involved (such as someone filing away the end of a cylinder a little, and yes, I have one of those sitting around, so someone saw the need to do it!). As most do not know how to do this, they come up with "fixes" to get around the problem. Not to say those fixes won't do the trick, adding material to that bushing can reduce that gap and "fix" the problem, but I would rather tackle it via the arbor. There are a number of intro to BP gunsmithing books out there that will give you the rundown on how to do this, and it is far better than trial and error, althouth trial and error is a better learning process (after ruining a few expensive parts, one will learn not to do it that way again!).

Given all the tips Rifle gave me about addressing the movement in the arbor, it was my understanding that he was suggesting that my pistol is damaged badly enough that I will need to take the additional step of adding the backplate in addition to addressing the arbor movement, not instead of.

[delmar]

Smokin Gun
Thanks for adding the photo.


Rifle

What I did not understand before I saw the photo, was that the backplate is designed to go around the  ring, rather than replacing it. I dropped by the hardware store on the way home from work, by the way, and I think I found the right bushing. I didn't buy it though cause I didn't have any cash on me, and I'm not going to use a credit card to buy a $0.53 part. I'm also trying to get a hold of a machinist I know. I think I'm going to have him drill the pin out of the arbor and thread it for a set screw, before I go any further.

[Smokin Gun]

  Glad to be of assistance Delmar ... Rifle and I talked about that brasser he reshielded some years ago.
I had a Belgian Colt so old and well used that even the steel shield had those imprints on it.
He rebuilt that Centaure SN767 for me so as that it funtions better than new and looks it age in years of use around 1960.
IIt's just that this wasone a them guns that called to me when I got it from a collector in AZ.
Anyway there's as many methods as I suppose there'd be opinions ... but arbor wiggle can be repaired I've done it. Welding it properly afterwords is icing on the cake and about the solid way it can be finnished.
You'll get her done Delmar, do doubt.

[delmar]

So I am sort of thinking that, rather than go with the back plate and make those modifications, I might just try to replace the brass ring with a steel one. I carved this one out of a 5/8" washer. It's still a little too thick, and the outside is not quite round yet, but I think I am getting close.

[Smokin Gun]

  It's lookin' purdy good there Delmar. But ain't it the shield that needs the Shim or steel protection also?
I've tried to get a part number and model tractor that Rifle got hat shim for on his brasser.
But he hasn't given them up  

[delmar]

It's lookin' purdy good there Delmar. But ain't it the shield that needs the Shim or steel protection also?

His design does have the advantage of spreading the impact over a larger surface area, but it does so at the cost of needing to make other changes, like shortening the nipples, that I would like to avoid, if I can. As far as I can tell it is only the ring in the middle that is battered out of shape. I'm going on the theory that returning that ring to it's original shape will put everything back in the proper position and restore original function. Then once I get the arbor good and tight, and fitting right I should be ready to go.

I've tried to get a part number and model tractor that Rifle got hat shim for on his brasser.
But he hasn't given them up  

What he described seems to be a pretty standard size. I found a bushing that size at the first Ace hardware I stopped at.

[Smokin Gun]

Good idea Delmar. Just take a look at the distance between the hammer and nipples/cylinder before yur done. That's only if you are pushing the cylinder very far forward to take up the cylinder gap at the forcin' cone.
Good project ...

[rifle]

Hi Delmar. Looks like yer "gettin to it". Replacing the ring as you have shown in the pic is viable. You have to have a solid back up for it. The battered ring that would be behind yer replacement would need leveled off first.
Another thing is that washers are kinda soft and that might not last long. If you use a narrow rim bushing like the one you found but.....much smaller....you could make a hard cap to your battered ring that would last longer.
Like was mentioned about the arbor and the cylinder gap and a wiggly arbor and a large cylinder gap isn't good for the ring even if it were steel. You have to end up with a min. cylinderr gap and fix the wiggly arbor. Arbor first...then the steel back plate or  your patented  "ring cap".
Your ring cap can work if the original is leveled and the cap is hard. I'd imagine it would be better to get rid of the originl battered ring all  together and have a more solid base to solder the cap to.
The backplate I mentioned is easier to do,maybe, except for the shortening of the nips and gettin rid of the safety pins.
Your machinist friend would find it easy to mill the shoulders where the nipples bottom on deeper,providing theres some extra hole in front of the ends of the nips, so you screw the nips in further instead of shorten them.
I put that steel backplate on my old brass framer before it was ever shot and was new. It's a CVA..ASM made brass framer and ASM used some soft brass for those he made. It would have banged up the ring behind the cylinder even if the cylinder gap was minimum and the wedge was kept fit well and all that.
I guess some brass framers are made of harder alloy brass so they can last.They say the Piettas made today last well. Others in the past have ,as the one above post has explained. I'd wonder how much shooting that brass framer has done in the last 20 years and wonder what make it is. I'd probably keep an eye out for one.
Bottoming an arbor in the barrels arbor hole isn't too hard. Takes some patience and some "color" on the arbors end to check when it hits bottom well and hits the bottom flat.
Thing is......those guns without the bottomed arbor to begin with have the barrels cant "back and down" at the breech when the wedge tightend things. That lets the barrel go back further and sometimes pinch the cylinder from turning.
Anywhoooo.....if an arbor is bottomed then the barrel doesn't cant back and down anywhere as much and the cylinder gap then is left larger ......you know how the cylinder gap is much smaller at the top than the bottom before the arbor is bottomed?  The barrel needs set back some in a case like that after the arbor is bottomed or as the arbor is bottomed. Sorta like your getting it bottomed and then realize the cylinder gap seems larger so you have to let the barrel come back a little and the frame or barrels bottom lug needs material taken off some. That complicates "bottoming" an arbor some. It's like they say,"easier said than done", type things. Not really real difficult but a little more complicated than one imagines before they "do it".
Anywhooo......there's ways to fix the old ones and get them back on the road again. I've found that, like in Smoking Guns case and the Centaure 1860 serial 767, those old junkers you find and fix become your favorite ones.
Good luck Delmar. Yer progressing from "Kitchen Table Gunsmithing 101" to "Advanced Kitchen Table Gunsmithing 101".  ha ha ha

[delmar]

If my machinist buddy can get the pin out and replace it with an allen screw, it should be pretty easy to mill off the old ring. I was actually wondering how hard it would be to mill a circle into the brass so I can leave the steel ring thicker and press it into place. I am planning to try and harden the ring by heating it up and dropping it in oil, as was suggested with my wedge.

I am sort of hoping to be up to Kitchen table gunsmithing 210 by the time this project it over. Then again this pistol might be a project that I enjoy working on, for years to come.

[delmar]

I got the pistol back from my machinist friend. He was able to get the pin out of the arbor and thread the hole for a set screw. I can't believe how tight the arbor is now.  The wiggle is entirely gone!