New to reloading new tips on loading BP in .45/70 buff gun

[Bristow Kid]

U am new to reloading and and starting with a .45/70 rolling block.  Any tips or suggestions on handleing and loading BP for this round or in general would be greatly appreciated.

Bristow Kid

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Bristow Kid,

I've been workin' on a couple of new bullet designs for this caliber.  One of 'em has been flyin' very successfully for over a year now, one demanded too much room for enuf powder and the third is too new to know with certainty just how it will fly.  The last design was intended for distances from 400 yards out to a thousand or so.  Preliminary results are encouraging.  Attention to detail is demanded in the extreme.

So, what do ya want to shoot at with yer 45-70?  The mission will tell you what missile is needed for the chore.  Also, do you want to push yer lead with Holy Black, or something. . . . . else.

Any information you can supply will help.

DD-DLoS

[TAkaho kid]

hello Bristow!

You will find Tons of information is available for the 45-70. Some useful links:

http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

http://groups.msn.com/bpcr/messages.msnw

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

Also checkout Mike Venturino's book "Shooting Buffalo Guns of the Old West" Great information plus a plain old good read.

I would recommend 1.5 Swiss, I have had good luck with 2F Schuetzen as well. A soft lead alloy bullet (20:1) or softer and a good black powder lube. Use a drop tube 24" works fine. For long range work I like the heavy bullets 500 grain. The old standard BP bullet designs work fine. The old Lyman/Ideal 457125 or the Saeco version of the 1881 bullet works very well. Casting these big bullets can be challenge. Buy good molds. I really like the Saeco's. I have had good luck with the Lyman's as well. There is also a whole bunch of custom mold makers out there too. If you get serious about long range BPCR you will want to check them out. Paul Jones, Brooks, Victory to name a few. Most carry standard designs or they can cut anything you want. Fpr best accuracy bullets should be +-.5 grains. Once you get the hang of it its easy. Its mostly keeping a rythym and a constant mold  and lead temp.

A wad is a must. Veg. fiber, card or poly - your choice. Again there is a ton of information. The 45-70 is powerful, accurate and an easy cartridge to load. Again there is tons of data out there. Once you get a good starter load then you can play and tweek it for accuracy. Eventually you may want to dive into paper patched bullets then the real fun begains.

My favorite starter load is:

Starline brass (or yours of choice)
Federal 215 primer
63 Grains Swiss 1.5
.030 veg. fiber wad
500 grain Saeco 1881 cast 20:1 (lead tin) sized ,459 lubed with SPG
.002 neck tension
Firm crimp under top driving band

Hsve fun and welcome to the club!

[Bristow Kid]

Thanks Dick andTAKaho.  This is all new to me so I won't be casting my own for while.  First I gotta figure out how to load them.  But thanks again.

[Cuts Crooked]

Howdy BK,

Uh, are sayin that reloading is new to you also? If so then you need to get the basics of reloading down first! Then work on them precision BP loads!

BTW, in yer area you have access to some very good long range BP shooters, up there at Ackley! Go to a few of thier matches and pick thier brains! Rest assured, you'll be more than welcome there!!!!!!

[Bristow Kid]

Already been down there Cuts thats what peeked my intrest and the .45/70 Pedersoli Rolling Block I baught while there.  And yes there are some great shots down there.

[Cuts Crooked]

Well, the best thing I can tell ya about loading for he 45-70 is that consistancy is the single most important factor in loading for accuracy! Regardless of the componants used a consistant loading technique will give you repeatable bullet flight. I've gotten some very impressive groups from my Ped Roller using one of the cheapest powders around, mainly because of close attention to loading technique.

Speaking of which, I know a pard that had a Pedersoli Roller for sale who was also going to be at Ackley for the match. Could be that the gun you bought passed through my hands recently! If so, you got a supurb shootin iron there!

[Driftwood Johnson]

It is a little bit unusual these days for a reloader to be starting with a Black Powder cartridge, rather than a Smokeless cartridge. Most new reloaders these days start with Smokeless, then get interested in BP later. Many of the techniques of reloading carry over whether or not you are loading Smokeless or BP. But there are some special issues with BP, mostly regarding lube, that are not a concern with Smokeless. When you eventually move over to Smokeless reloading, which I'm sure you will, you will need to pay specific attention to powder charges and recipes, since it is easy to put enough Smokeless powder into most guns to blow them up. Black Powder has far less energy, pound for pound, than Smokeless, so it is difficult to stuff enough of it into the old cartridges to damage a gun. In fact, most of the old cartridges are so large in order to stuff in enough BP to make the cartridge reach its potential. Keeping BP loads consistant is more about accuracy than blowing up guns. However, do not loose sight of the fact that real Black Powder is a true explosive, and is easier to ignite than Smokeless powder. I would suggest you buy a good general reloading manyual, like the Lyman, and read it first to become familiar with reloading metallic cartridges for starters.

I'll second Mike Venturino's book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West.

http://www.ycsi.net/users/mlventurino/

Click on the Buffalo Rifle Book. Mike's books are all great. Each one has a chapter about each of the old west guns, and specific loading data for all the cartridges they were chambered in. He alwas has a chapter specifically about Black Powder cartridge loading in general too. The Buffalo Rifles book is specifically about loading BP for these old designs. In addition to the chapter on general BP cartirdge reloading techniques this book has another chapter featuring the techniques some of the top shooters use for precision shooting with BP single shot cartridges. There is also a chapter on each type of gun, including the Rolling Block.

[Bristow Kid]

Driftwood,

Thanks for the advice.  Although I would like to start reloading BP.  I have deceided to start with smokeless due to the advice of many others and yourself.  I'll be posting again when I get more experience in the reloading arts.

Bristow Kid

[Driftwood Johnson]

Hold on there Pard.

I never said you should start loading with Smokeless. I just said it is unusual. My first experience with 'reloading' was in 1968 with my new Cap & Ball pistol and Black Powder. I wasn't stuffing the powder into cartridges, but loading a loose powder into the chambers of a percussion revovler and stuffing a ball on top does share a frew of the concepts of metallic reloading.

If you want to reload for your Rolling Block, BP is a perfect way to go. With BP in your 45-70 cases, as long as the gun is in sound mechanical condition there is no way you can stuff enough powder in to harm the gun. Not true with Smokeless, you can blow it up with Smokeless if you don't pay close attention to your recipes. Of course you should pay close attention to your recipes at all times. The disadvantages of loading with BP are making sure you provide adequate lube to keep your gun from fouling out. This of course is not a concern when loading with Smokeless.

You don't mention if your Rolling Block is an original or a modern reproduction. Modern reproductions are built out of modern steel and can take Smokeless cartridges loaded to moderate pressures. Originals may not be safe to shoot with Smokeless, depending on the condition of the gun. Even in good shape, the older steels were not as strong as modern steels and you may need to keep your pressure down with Smokeless. Pressure is not as much of a concern with BP.

It is certainly a good idea to read a modern manual like the Lyman to understand the basics of reloading. The Venturino book will go a long way towards rounding out your education in the Black Arts.

What other calibers do you shoot that you might possibly want to reload for? Any pistol calibers like 38 Special or 45 Colt? These are great calibers to learn Smokeless loading with. Probably a little bit easier than the 45-70. But really, there is no reason you should not make your first adventure in reloading with BP, just as long as you understand the special requirements it imposes.

P.S. Just looked at your replies again. That Pedersoli roller will be perfectly capable of shooting Smokeless as long as you stay with moderate loads.

[Bristow Kid]

Driftwood,

I understand what your saying.  And today I took the sound advice of many and purchased "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West"  and "Black Powder and the Old West".  I plan on purchasing the loading manual suggested.  The Lyman one comes highly reccomended.  I am also gonna be loading .45 Colt in the future and maybe some .44-40.  Both with BP and smokeless.  I really appreciate all the fine advice give to me by you and others.

Bristow Kid

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, Bristow Kid and welcome to the wonderful world of reloading!

I've said it before and I'll say it again (to you) ... For the sake of accuracy, BP and hard cast bullets don't mix well.  Smokeyless powders and hard cast is fine.  Just use soft lead (even softer than wheelweight lead alloy) to load for that 45-70, or your accuracy will suffer.  ESPECIALLY beyond 100 yds.  You can get by using harder bullets with BP cartridge pistols, but you'll have to fuss with 'em to get enough lube to run a match without cleaning the BP fouling out part way thru the match.

Have fun!

[Dick Dastardly]

Some shooters benefit from putting a thin 1/16" fiber wad between the powder and the bullet.  I've started doing it and it does seem to help, not so much with actual point of impact, but I get less flyers.  Groups aren't all that much better but it seems that there are less rounds leaving the center of the group.


DD-DLoS

[Grapeshot]

This might be a bit late, but it has worked for me.  All the advice you've gotten up to this point has been very good.  To go one step further I'd recommend J.S. & Pat Wolf's book, Reloading Black Powder Cartridges for the Original Springfield .45-70 Rifle and Carbine.  See www.the45-70book

You will find that the authors recommend that you use a #41 drill bit to open the flash hole in the primer pocket and use Federal or Winchester Large Rifle MAGNUM Primers.  These give the longest flame times to ignite the compacted/compressed powder charges.

The Wolf's also state that the compression of 2fg of a weighed 70 grain charge is around 0.6 inchs using a 500 grain M1881 Bullet.  SAECO and NEI both have these molds.

Don't overlook the Paper Patched Bullet as they are extremely accurate.  I use them in my Navy Arms Rolling Block Rifle that I purchased in Alaska back in 1972.  I haven't had a bullet shoot as tight a group as when I use a PP Bullet over a compressed charge of 2fg.  My PP bullets are formed in a Corbin Swage Press and I think Buffalo Arms also offers them on their web site.  Just stay with the 20-1 to 30-1 lead/tin mis and you'll do just fine.

[TAkaho kid]

Hello Grapeshot!

I certainly agree with the paper patched bullet. I shoot a 550 grain tapered bullet with a cupped base over 70 gr of Swiss 1.5
If I do my part it does its part.

Once you get into the patched bullets a whole new world opens up and you will never find an end to the combinations to try.

Bristow,
If your interested in the PP bullet I suggest a copy of Paul Mathews: "The Paper Jacketed Bullet".

[Nine Toed Bob]

Amen to Driftwood's sage advice! I reload everything I shoot!
Anyone got a good starting point for 45-70 H&R BO, 405 gr, Pyrodex? I'm setting this up for 100-300 yd CAS LR shooting.
Thanks for any suggestions.
NTB

[Fairshake]

There are several ways to skin a cat and BP loading will show you that. Grapeshot advised to use LR Magnum Primers to load your cases. That is the same thing that I heard when I started and that is what I did. There are a group of shooters who have gotten away from this style and went in another direction. This group contains some with several National Titles. One thing you might want to try if you can't buy or find Swiss 1 1/2 or 2F is Goex Cartridge grade. It works for most shooting up till the 700 yds mark. The primer thing is somethi9ng that I am trying out myself at this time. It is using large pistol primers and putting a wad of paper that is case size over the primer before loading the powder charge. The paper that is recomemed is tracing paper but newspaper has been used. The paper wad has resulted in single digit ES and SD numbers. The groups have been smaller also. Now if you want to shoot at cans on the river bank forget what I have posted as this is meant for long range work only. I love Goex powder but Swiss will out do it over the long haul. The Swiss powders are smaller in grain size than Goex for one. Swiss 1 1/2 is close to Goex 2 F and Swiss 2F is close to Goex 3F and so on. A lot of people like to compare the two but you are comparing apples and oranges. Again this is not to say what others say or do is wrong but when you load BP you can get there in a different way than the guy next to you. Also what works in my gun might do terrible in yours. Later David