Question about Buffalo Guns

amin ledbetter · November 09, 2009, 06:34:08 PM

What rifles are considered to be Buffalo guns? Are they strictly the Sharps, Hi Wall, Rolling blocks, and any other gun used during the Creedmore matches? Or were the older muzzleloading single shot Hawkens, Springfields, and Enfield muskets used for Buffalo as well?

Delmonico · November 09, 2009, 06:53:50 PM

A good question and one hard to answer. Myself I consider them the ones most often used during the 1871-1882 period when the majority of the hide hunting for market was done. Trapdoors, Sharps, Remmy rollers and possibly the Peabody and Ballard.

Professor Marvel · November 09, 2009, 07:44:17 PM

I concur with our good Delmonico.

Whilst I am sure many buffalo fell to the large bore plains rifles, the combination of elongated cylinderical lead bullets in a primed cartridge case fed into a strong breachloader really defines the quintisential buffalo rifle. The longer bullets stabilize well and allow more effective long range shooting and with a heavier bullet than does round ball, (even tho so many buff were taken at "closer" ranges) .

Shotgun Franklin · November 09, 2009, 07:52:23 PM

Yeah, it wasn't just that a gun could kill a buffalo, it was the rifles used by the Commercial Hunters that should be considered Buffalo RIFLEs. Buffalo Bill killed a buncha Buff with a .44 S&W revolver but I wouldn't consider a .44 S&W a Buffalo Gun.

john boy · November 09, 2009, 11:01:44 PM

Here's a good read on the topic - Mike Venturino - Guns Magazine - Aug 2006
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_52/ai_n16498986/

drcook · November 10, 2009, 08:09:38 AM

Now, not to hijack the thread, but to ask for clarification, are you asking what was actually a rifle
used during the buffalo hunt era, or are you asking what has been classified a BPCR rifle for today's
purposes.

If the 1st, the answer has been given to you above and in the article referenced

If the 2nd (BPCR classification) then the NRA has included 1885 Highwall and Stevens 44 1/2 rifles
into the mix because they are in the "spirit" of the game.

dc

Marshal Deadwood · November 10, 2009, 05:45:08 PM

Dont' ya rekon some Sharps percussions accounted for 'some' buffalo ? I mean,,its obvious they all did not get converted. I suspect there might have been mo' than one percussion Sharps earning its living in the buffalo hunting theatre.

What'cha think ?

MD

Delmonico · November 10, 2009, 06:00:00 PM

Quote from: Marshal Deadwood on November 10, 2009, 05:45:08 PM
Dont' ya rekon some Sharps percussions accounted for 'some' buffalo ? I mean,,its obvious they all did not get converted. I suspect there might have been mo' than one percussion Sharps earning its living in the buffalo hunting theatre.

What'cha think ?

MD

Lots of guns were used to hunt buffalo, but I'm talking about the real pros. One of them would slow a person trying to make a stand down. A paper cartridge gun is slower to operate, one could loose their stand while fumbling around that way. The real pro outfits were not into cost cutting. Remember the time period of that was spring of 1871 to fall of 1882.

The ads to buy flint hides came out in the spring of 1871 the process to make good leather from them being developed over the winter of 1870-71. Small outfits trying to hunt on a budget failed. Even the cheaper 50-70 trapdoor was discarded real fast by any serious outfit. And the ones who went out up north in the fall of 1882 found few left.

Marshal Deadwood · November 10, 2009, 07:10:21 PM

Yea, I see ya point Del.

MD

Delmonico · November 10, 2009, 07:23:34 PM

Also as I remember the powder charge was only 50 grs amd that is 20 grains below the charge for the 50-70 and with the larger dia bullet it won't range out as far because of the lower sectional density. That is why the 50 Cal was dropped by both the army and Sharps because a bullet of around the same weight in 45 calliber has an even higher sectional density that 50 by quite a bit.

Some were most likely used but also most likely if they stayed in the bussiness for any lenth of time the used their first hide money to buy a better rifle. Accounts said folks went out with muzzle loaders and even shotguns with ball when they found out the hides were worth money. But didn't last long when they could not make the large kills needed to make it pay.

amin ledbetter · November 10, 2009, 08:34:02 PM

Quote from: drcook on November 10, 2009, 08:09:38 AM
Now, not to hijack the thread, but to ask for clarification, are you asking what was actually a rifle
used during the buffalo hunt era, or are you asking what has been classified a BPCR rifle for today's
purposes.

If the 1st, the answer has been given to you above and in the article referenced

If the 2nd (BPCR classification) then the NRA has included 1885 Highwall and Stevens 44 1/2 rifles
into the mix because they are in the "spirit" of the game.

dc

Well I'm asking actually for both aspects mentioned in your reply. I have read some on the these legendary guns and they fascinate me! There elegance lies in the legends of there use, and the amazing accounts of the men who used them. The attraction for me are the guns involvement in the Creedmore match more then hunting Buffalo. When reading of Creedmore only, one might think the Sharp and the Rolling Block were the only two rifles used for hunting Buffalo. Though I knew better than that being the case, that is what sparked me asking the question. What guns were used to hunt buffalo? I was curious if it were narrowed down to two or three types of rifles, or if the legends of the few were so remarkable that they overwhelmingly over shadowed the other less legendary rifles. ( If there were any. ) I hope that clarifies what I was asking. $:-\$

Oh! Thanks to all who have replied. This is some great information you have provided. I know why you all share the same fascination with these guns. If they are as fun to shoot as they are to read about, there is no doubt I will wind up with one in the near future. Thanks again.

J.D. Yellowhammer · November 11, 2009, 08:18:12 AM

Quote from: amin ledbetter on November 10, 2009, 08:34:02 PM
If they are fun to shoot as they are to read about, there is no doubt I will wind up with one in the near future. Thanks again.

It's just about as much fun as you can have with yer clothes on!

I'm not experienced like the other posters, only been shooting and reloading them fer 5 years, but maybe my beginners perspective will add to your desire to own and shoot these fine rifles.

I don't have deep pockets. If I did, I'd certainly own a Shiloh Sharps and a few other of the top-of-the-line guns. With limited means I've found the Pedersoli rifles to have some of the best barrels fer the money (I have a Ped. .45-70 RB). I also love my Winchester (Miroku) High Wall .38-55, which is a tack-driver.

Reloading is one of the funnest aspects of the sport. Although I have a Dillon progressive for my pistol caliber stuff, I own an inexpensive single-stage Lee that I use for BPCR. Loading fer long range is a science and an art. Working up the right powder and load, finding the best boolit, experimenting with neck sizing/no sizing/etc., trying different powder brands and compressions, the right primers, can build into years of fun.

You may already have these, but I thought I'd include some useful links (there are many more, but you'll find a wealth of info here):

The FORUMS at BPCR.net
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/

American Single Shot Rifle Association
http://www.assra.com/

Shiloh Rifle Forums
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

LONG RANGE BPCR
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/

Cast Boolits Black Powder Cartridge
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=30

My best advice to you is to do a little research, then Run Don't Walk to get your first rifle. I predict you'll get hooked fast.

Short Knife Johnson · December 02, 2009, 11:38:21 PM

Quote from: J.D. Yellowhammer on November 11, 2009, 08:18:12 AM
It's just about as much fun as you can have with yer clothes on!

Well, OK... if you like to shoot them that way

It's generally recognized the High Wall and the Stevens came along too late for the buffalo hunts. They are used for BPCR Silhouette because they qualify under the rules of American made, pre 1898 design with exposed hammer. The Borchardt does not qualify, neither do any of the brilliant action types from across the pond. Which I find as too bad because all of these old designs are beautiful.

Shooting the Buffalo rifles was something I'd wanted to do for almost 10 years, but other things got in the way. I'd studied loading and shooting them for five years before I got my grubby hands on one. I'd squirreled away some money, and a Shiloh came my way last year. I was lucky enough to get into some competitions this year where I had done very well, and this last spring I stopped in at the Shiloh shop in Big Timber and ordered me one brand new. I'm going to diversify more later on, but this big-bore black powder thing will be with me for the rest of my days. Maybe even longer.

Pitspitr · December 26, 2009, 11:17:08 AM

Quote from: Delmonico on November 10, 2009, 06:00:00 PM
Even the cheaper 50-70 trapdoor was discarded real fast by any serious outfit.

Lucretia Borgia would be sorry to hear you say that Del.

Quote from: J.D. Yellowhammer on November 11, 2009, 08:18:12 AM
With limited means I've found the Pedersoli rifles to have some of the best barrels fer the money (I have a Ped. .45-70 RB).

Agreed. Once I got good sights on it my Pedersoli Sharps will shoot as well as I'm capable, and my Pedersoli Springfield Long Range rifle is the best shooting trapdoor I own (and I own several)

Arizona Trooper · December 26, 2009, 05:58:17 PM

Trapdoors are very underrated as buffalo rifles. Keep in mind that a lot of forts would issue "obsolete" rifles to contract hunters. These were usually M-1866s or M-1868s. Several years ago, a friend of mine picked up a well used, but well cared for, M-1868 rifle. It was pretty grimy, especially around the stock wrist. When we cleaned it up, lo and behold, it had been inletted for a Sharps tang sight! The sight probably got moved to a more modern rifle at some point, and the inletting was expertly filed with a block of walnut. I'll wager that rifle accounted for a few hairy beasts.

If you are interested in Creedmore shooting, look into the Springfield Long Range Rifles, which cleaned up in the trans-Atlantic matches (1880 as I recall). They are hopped up Trapdoor rifles, chambered for 45-80-500 ammo (45/2.4 in the Sharps nomenclature) with 1 in 19 5/8 twist 6 groove barrels and M-1879 sights modified to be windage adjustable. They beat all the super match rifles of the time in the military class. I built one from mostly original parts using a Hoyt sleeved barrel. It is a great shooter.

Pitspitr · December 27, 2009, 08:22:15 AM

Quote from: Arizona Trooper on December 26, 2009, 05:58:17 PMIf you are interested in Creedmore shooting, look into the Springfield Long Range Rifles, which cleaned up in the trans-Atlantic matches (1880 as I recall). They are hopped up Trapdoor rifles, chambered for 45-80-500 ammo (45/2.4 in the Sharps nomenclature) with 1 in 19 5/8 twist 6 groove barrels and M-1879 sights modified to be windage adjustable.

They also featured a different stock than the standard '73 Springfield to help absorb the recoil of the heavier powder charge The sights were called the Bull sights (but some were built with Sharps sights).

And if you find an original for goodness take care of it. If I had an original it would be the only gun in my collection I wouldn't shoot.
There were fewer than 200 made (some scholors estimate as few as 116) 10 years ago they were worth around $20,000.00. I'd hate to venutre what one would be worth today.

Grogan · December 29, 2009, 09:48:49 AM

For those who might be curious about that Government .45-80-500 cartridge, the longest one shown here is an original.

(Click on image to enlarge)

Yellowhouse Sam · January 08, 2010, 09:09:38 AM

The Cator Brothers used their 50-70 RB right up to the end. Folks like J. Wright Mooar used it too until the 50-90 came out. This caliber gets pretty light treatment and is overshadowed by the popular 44-77, 50-90, and 44-90. These were the mainstays till the mid 1870's when the big 45's came out. The 50-70 whether as trapdoor, RB, or in a Sharps was highly effective when ranges weren't so lengthy and many consider it as the cartridge that won the west. Probably more buffalo, Indians and soldiers fell to this round than any other. Remember the Indians killed lots of buffalo for robes and this was their tool of choice as with many white hunters. Government ammo was cheap and sometimes given away to both Indian and white. It was the second most popular caliber in the Sharps until the 45-70 came out. 44-77 was most popular until that point.

Funny, although the 45-70 became the most popular chambering it is rarely mentioned in the existing journals as being used by professionals. The big prize goes to the 45 2 7/8 length as far as hunter preference goes.

There is another facet concerning the 50-70. Most hunters reloaded and used paper patched bullets. Its not too hard to get 80 grs of powder in the "little 50" when you do this. But as mentioned, the SD is not good with a 450 or so grain bullet. It doesn't get good in the 50 until you get into the 600 gr bullet weights and you need a really heavy rifle to hold the recoil down!!!

And concerning rifles, evidently the Maynard saw quite a bit use too.

Read:

Sharps Rifles by Frank Sellers
Shooting Buffalo Rifles by Venturino
Getting a stand by Mles Gilbert and the Encylopedia of Buffalo Hunters Vol 1 & !!

rustyrelx · May 29, 2010, 10:49:22 AM

The Springfield Trapdoor rifle eventually overshadowed the Remingtons and Sharps in Creedmore as the shoot evolved into a Military contest. There was even an award of a rifle for winners, Marksman's rifle. Creedmore is a fascinating subject all in itself. I would love to see somebody make a film on it. The founding of the NRA. One would have thought that this was already done. Its almost a "daaaaaaaaa". I am positive that the amount of buffalo that were taken were taken by trapdoors with the military approval for procuring substance for the troops. Professional hunters would of course use the latest greatest Sharps and Remingtons and toward the end would have used the 40-90 as it ranged flatter.
I built a Marksman rifle using the Hotchkis buttplate and wow is it ever a shooter. Its old engraving and a perfect bore with origional barrel sights and set trigger. ALSO it was a LOT less expensive than buying a comercially prepaired, imported copy of something.
I shoot Creedmore rifles of Ballard and Remington manufacture in 40-90, 44-90, 45-100, 44-100. Most interesting is the Remington. Its full octagon and one of 3 know rifles in existance. I had provided the info to the Remington Society and now this rifle is in the records.
Don rustyrelx

Kent Shootwell · May 31, 2010, 10:16:29 AM

The buffalo hunter would be using single or double set triggers, but to compete in a Creedmoor match a single trigger of three pound pull or more was required. The weight of the match rifle must be less the 10 pounds yet sporting rifles weighed as much as 25 pounds althoe a rifle of 12 to 17 pounds were used by the professional hunter. So there are three rifles you NEED, one for todays use, one for the old Creedmoor match, and one for your pro buffalo hunting! Of coarse those would be "Sharps, the gun that made the west safe for Winchester!"