First breech-loading shotguns?

[Frenchie]

I've been trying to find out when the first breech-loading shotguns were available. My books and the Internet have not answered the question. If I had any hair left I'd be pulling it out. Any and all help will be greatly appreciated.

[Delmonico]

I'll go upstairs and find it tommorow, but late 1820's to early 1830's.  It is somewhere on one of the older posts on NCOWS on TFS about the paper cartridges really being made before the brass.

They were made in France and they wern't smart enough to put the firin' pins in the gun, but put them in the shell instead, and I understand some were imported.  The Center fire breech loader like we know came out of England in the 1850's and some were imported to my understandin'.  Now when the got really common would be later.  I'm doin' some research on that right now.

[Frenchie]

Thanks heaps, Del! That's what I suspected and wanted to know for sure, that there were English breech-loader shotguns available. Cool. Now can you tell me if there were American versions available by 1871? That's the cutoff for my impression.

And hey, the French did their share of firearms development - the Minié ball and the Lebel rifle come to mind. The Lebel skeered the bejeesus out of Europe for a while there. And the LeMat revolver is pretty cool too.

Tiens, voila du boudins, voila du boudins, voila du boudins...

[Delmonico]

I'll do some more diggin' on American ones.

Le Matt was of French desent but he was and American or Confederate take yer choice that lived in New Orleans.  He had it built in France cause there was noone who could make it in the South.

Did ya ever notice that the while French make good servicable guns, they are very ugly.

But the same with cars.

And Delmonico ain't gonna say nothin' 'bout their food cause he might get in trouble.

[Frenchie]

I'll do some more diggin' on American ones.

Much appreciated. What's the name of the book?

Le Matt was of French desent but he was and American or Confederate take yer choice that lived in New Orleans.  He had it built in France cause there was noone who could make it in the South.

Yes, he had connections in Paris and the revolver was first made there in 11mm (.42 cal) with a .63 cal shotgun barrel/cylinder boss, I think. The ones made for the South were .44, with the shotgun barrel/cylinder boss sized to 20 gauge, again, I think. Correct me if that's wrong. It was also made in Birmingham, England.

Did ya ever notice that the while French make good servicable guns, they are very ugly.

Eh, not always. The Lebel is not ugly. They made/make some decent-looking auto pistols and shotguns.

But the same with cars.

No worse than most other European cars.

And Delmonico ain't gonna say nothin' 'bout their food cause he might get in trouble.

It's okay as long as it stays where it's put: http://www.geocities.com/gnlafrance64/snail_on_a_scooter.bmp

[Delmonico]

I'll dig around, that is not something I think I can figger out from one book.  I know the English made Greener's had a good reputation.  John Wayne war right is chosin' them in many of his movies.

I am not really sure when on an American made one.  A trip to the library might be in order.

[Four-Eyed Buck]

I'm thinking the first American cartridge guns about the late 1870's. Imports a little earlier than that, English& Belgians............Buck

[Delmonico]

With a lot of searching, I can't give a yes/no answer, but I can't find any records of breech loading American made shotguns till the late 1870's Colt in 1878, Remington not till 1881, Parker I belive in 1876 or 1877.  Winchester never made a Double till the Wonderful 21 was brought out in the 1930's.

American makers seem to have concentrated on repeaters such as the Roper and Spencer.

Ya got my interest started, I will but it in the back of my mind and keep a sharp eye out for any other imformation. 

My opinion for what it is worth, I would say a vast amount of folks in this country held on to the cheaper to use and cheaper to buy muzzle-loader.  With shells having to have at least the shot added by the user as I have pointed out before in other forums, my self it would tend to keep me using the muzzel-loader, given the time and circumstance.

For hunting for food, cost was important, remember 1873 started a Depresion almost as bad as the one that started in 1929.  If you are using it as a fighting tool and the adversary is close enough to use a shotgun on, would you get more than 2 shots with a double anyway, no matter which end you loaded it from?

[Will Ketchum]

One of the best books I have found for answering this type of question is "Firearms of the American West 1866-1894[/i by loius A Garavaglia & Charles G. Worman.

They indicate that American breech loaders were available by 1868 and by 1869 pretty common.  If you want the particulars let me know.  Right now I don't have the time or inclination to type in the paragraphs

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

Myself I am just curious as to makers if noted, were they small ones no longer around or major names.

[Will Ketchum]

Allen had a breech loader based on a August 1865 patent.
Here is how it's described, "..The Allen did not employ the common pivoting-barrel or
break-open design, but instead used fixed barrels,closed at the rear by a double-width breechblock.  A longitudinal hinge pin, passing through the left side of the block, allowed it to swing upward and to the left for loading, just as the Warner carbine and the Snider rifle. A downward and forward push on the trigger guard extracted the fired cases, made of steel, they were designed to be reloaded almost indefinitely.  Allens breech loader was on the market in the East by mid-1968; by March of 1869 the Folsom brothers of St Louis and New Orleans were offering it at prices ranging from $100 to $150 depending on the amount of engraving.  But the Allen had other distributors farther west: in May of 1869 the Masters Brothers of Omaha listed themselves as Allen dealers....."

Another manufactures listed are: Daniel Wesson, Eli Whitney and the Parker Brothers.  Ot these only Parker would be really successful..  The portion of the shotgun chapter devoted to breech loaders is 25 pages.   I can't recommend this book too strongly.  It should be in everyone's library who is interested in the History of firearms in th West.

Again the title is Firearms of the American West 1866-1894 by Loius A Garavaglia and Charles G Worman.
ISBN 0-8263-0792-2

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

Sounds like a good book to add to the collection, so many "Guns of the Old West" type books add any information that is anything but vague on some of the smaller companies.

I have one of those Made in Belgum Snider type conversions of an French Musket, those were very popular at one time and sold for about $5.  It's been in the family for 5 generations.

[Ol Gabe]

Great info Pards!
Just for the sake of discussion, what about ther Falling Block shotguns and the Trapdoor shotguns used by the Troops at various Forts for small game acquisition, would these fall into this cartegory or not? Mike Harman, a contributing writer for THE SHOOTIST, did an article a year or so ago about Falling Block shotguns, quite interesting as I recall. After that came out I happened to see one at an auction, it went for quite a pretty penny, I tell you what! There have also been a few threads on TFS in the past about the Trapdoor shotgun and its use around the Forts by cooks and outfitters to gather small game for the camps tables. If the Trapdoor was used as such it would then fall into the same category, right?
Best regards and good thinking!
'Ol Gabe

[Four-Eyed Buck]

I know there are some examples of Rolling Block shotguns as well. Friend of mine has a 20ga example...........Buck

[Delmonico]

I have a book that has a picture of a Belgum made roller that is a double barrel.

[Second Creek Sam]

Sporting shooting as we know it today developed more rapidly with the development of the breach- loader again primarily for use in the military. The first practical version of this, being developed in 1831 by M. Demondion. Improvements followed rapidly with Gilbert's Smith's American rifle (1838); the Norwegian Carbine (1842); the Westley Richards' capping breach loader (1861) followed in Britain by the Snider Rifle and the Martini- Henry rifles and in the US by the famous Sharps (1850) and Henry and Remington (1866) breach loading rifles.

The greatest weakness in breach loading shotguns was the method of attaching the barrels to the stock. The development of various methods was made in parallel with various ignition systems. The first effective breech loading shotgun was developed as a pin fire by Lefaucheux (1836) and various methods were tried to develop an effective and safe method of barrel attachment.

It was not until the development of the centre fire cartridge that the modern breech action was developed. Needham of London (1862) is given credit for this type of snap or self locking action where the locking bolt is forced into the bites or grips by a spring when the gun is closed. 

http://www.countrysportsandcountrylife.com/sections/shooting/dev_gun/hammer_shotguns.htm

[Scattered Thumbs]

Did ya ever notice that the while French make good servicable guns, they are very ugly.

Not all were ugly. The 1873 revolver and some Galland revolvers are not ugly. But you should see the Le Matt cartridge revolver <shudders>

But the same with cars.

Again I disagree. The Delage, the Bugattis (all right Ettore Bugatti was an Italian), the Delayes and eve some Citroens are not ugly. off course this was all before WWII