Cap & Ball Revolver Firelapping

[R. Flux]

Gents, cowboys & you others too:

New to Cap & Ball revolvers, but I've firelapped (using the LBT grit) many modern rifles and automatics.  I've never firelapped a smooth bore flinter (my late first model Brown Bess) but have done a number of rifled flinters (.36, .45, .50, .58).  I've always been pleased with an accuracy improvement (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot better) and cleaning gets a bit easier.  My experience with firelapping includes rifle teams, multiple calibers and some intensive competition.  I've reviewed multiple sets of instructions, other experienced shooters, a host of forum comments in several organizations and haven't found a recommended method for a Cap & Ball revolver.

The challenge is the lack of a cartridge to enclose the firelapping bullet; instead we have any open cylinder and round-ball.  If we grit the RB, firing will spray some grit all over and the bearing surface of a RB is tiny.  Because of small RB bearing surface firelapping might be minimal or slow.   Lapping by hand is very tricky and maybe above my skill level.  Should I consider firing a slug instead?  Maybe not since this approach only picks up grit as the projo grabs some at firing, but flushes most out as the round exits the barrel.  Maybe RB or slug won't make a difference.

I want to firelap a new stainless Pietta 1858 Remington. The forcing cone is a little rough and I can see and feel some chatter marks in the barrel.  This Pietta throats are properly sized (+.0014 over barrel groove) and nicely finished.  Firelapping seems an excellent option.  Normally you roll a soft slug on a dead flat plate and use a low velocity charge to fire the round.  Careful and continuous cleaning and monitoring and several rounds (10, 20, 30?) later yields increased smoothness and better accuracy.

From what I know (always dangerous assumption) it seems that the procedure maybe.
1. Load 1 Pb ball in the cylinder with a light (NOT Warthog!) load, off weapon.  May require a wad and/or filler.
2. With a small swab, place a very small quantity of grit on the forcing cone and first inch of the barrel.
3. Mount cylinder in revolver and align the single live round to fire.
4. Fire down range.
5. Clean cylinder, cylinder pin, throat & barrel.
6. Repeat Steps 1 to 5.
7. Examine forcing cone and barrel every 5 rounds .
8. Stop firelapping when throat and barrel appear smoother; both visually and by the drag during cleaning.  Stop after 10 rounds and re-evaluate (maybe test fire for accuracy).  Shoot no more that 30 firelapping rounds?
9. Clean whole gun to remove ALL grit, we don't want unnecessary wear.

The forcing cone and barrel or just the barrel might be addressed separately by placing grit in both or only in the barrel.

Can anyone enlighten me on the correct procedure for firelapping a Pietta 1858 Remington?  You all have much more experience with Cap & Ball than I will ever accumulate.  All thoughts and comments welcome.  Think it will work or should I wait several thousands of Pb round-ball to break in the revolver?

Regards,
R. Flux

[Pettifogger]

If you have one of those Pietta Tiro's (I think it's also called the Shooter) with the adjustable sights and you are going to engage in some really precision target shooting at 50+ yards, firelapping might be useful.  Otherwise it's a complete waste of time.  Most C&B's are remarkably accurate out of the box and if you are shooting CAS matches the targets are usually set from 6 to 8 yards.  SASS recommended maximum is ten yards.  You ain't gonna be able to tell any difference at those distances.  Shoot it, have fun, save the labor for something else. 

[Noz]

It's not worth the effort.
The gun will shoot better than you can off hand as it comes out of the box so no appreciable accuracy advantage will be found.
I know that fire lapping aids in reduction of leading but that also is not an issue with cap and ball revolvers as the slow speed of the projectile does not tend to lead.
If it is something you just must do then look into the Lee conicals or maybe a Big Lube to hold the abrasive. I'd certainly clean the arbor area between each shot to prevent wear there.

[River City John]

It's true all of us cap'n'ball shooters fire-lap our guns by just taking them out of the box and shooting them a lot.
After about ten+ years figure they're about as broken in as they're ever going to get.

RCJ

[44caliberkid]

I have used Brownell's JB Bore Compound on a tight patch/ jag and smoothed out a new barrel and forcing cone.   It only took about 10 or 15 minutes at the kitchen table.   I think fire lapping would be a waste of time no matter what you're doing with the pistol.   If you insist on doing it, bench rest the pistol for groups before and after you do it to see if it made any difference and prove we were all right.

[Buffalo Bruce]

Flux:

Have never done fire lapping. I use JB's on most of my gun barrels. My cowboy pistols are all USFA or Urberti's. JB' really helps the Uberties especially the cap & ball guns. I use the compound on a patch over a tight fiting jag.. I run the jag through the bore 12 to 15 times, then start over with a new patch treated with compound. I repeat this 12 to 15 time depending. Make a big difference in some guns and makes cleaning easier in all of them.

Buffalo

[Deadguy]

I too use JB Bore Compound on my guns.  Back and forth down the bore 40 times or so usually does the trick.  Or, you can go up and down the barrel just 2 or 3 times for a really sparkly clean!

[fourfingersofdeath]

If you really had to do it, the big loobe boolit would be the best vehicle for the grit I'm thinking. I'd like to see the befores and afters. Apart from easier cleaning, I can't see that it'd do much (what did Elmer say? "the possibility that I am wrong has not escaped me........"  ). Wouldn't hurt done properly, But like someone else said I'd be cleaning off everything between shots justtttttttttttt to be sure.

[Montana Slim]

Firlapping??....I wouldn't bother, but of course you certainly may if you'd like to.

It's definitely worthwhile to use a forcing-cone reamer to cleanup (create  ) a working forcing cone on the gun.
I use one of the Brownells 11 degree kits and it does a marvelous job.


Regards,
Slim

[44caliberkid]

If improved, maximum accuracy is your goal, then proper sizing of the chamber mouths would be a much more productive use of your time.   Most CB revolvers have chamber mouths smaller than groove diameter, swaging the ball down to a less tham bore filling diameter.  The first step to improving accuracy in the 1858 is reaming the chamber mouths to match groove diameter.   Of course, this isn't nessesary for CAS accuracy, only target competition or just because you like to squeeze all you can get out of one.

[Dick Dastardly]

What 44caliberkid said.

For reasons I don't understand outside of lawyers, the Italian guns seem to come with undersize chambers.  Before I did anything else, I'd check the chamber vs barrel diameters.  Opening up those chambers to match barrel diameter improves accuracy.  Silas McFee has a 58 that had chambers at around .446" and a bore diameter of .454".  Walt Kirst fitted his Kirst Konverter cylinder and it produced amazing accuracy.  Then, Walt reamed the original C&B cylinder to the same specs and it really got religion.

My ROAs came with .454" chambers and they always shot great.  I have Kirst Konverters for them also and they have .454" chambers.  They also shoot great.

The rifling  is so totally bad in my little spur trigger Remington .31 that I'm going to fire lap it.  I'll do the JB treatment first.  I've never seen a barrel so rough inside before.  So, yes, there are guns that will benefit a lot and others that will do very well without it.  We're not into bullseye shooting here, but you do want your guns to hit where they look.

DD-DLoS

[R. Flux]

Thanks for all the advice.  My chambers are .447" for both the original Pietta (2009 proof) cylinder and a spare I just received from Cabelas.  My groove is .446".  So I have .001" to spare.
River City John is right; with soft PB it'll take thousands of rounds to break-in.

I'll take some pre-firelapping groups and then gently lap by lightly swabbing the throat (a little) and the first inch of the barrel.  I'll use 10grs 2F GOEX (old 1980 batch) and initially a .454 RB.  Going to fire and clean each round and evaluate at 5, 10, 15 & 20 rounds.  If this in-effectual I'll switch to a conical (rolled in lap on a flat plate) to increase bearing surface for a few more sets.  I've got to finish cleaning up and polishing the internals first.
Wish me luck.  I'll let you know how it goes.  If it is not productive I may create a lapping slug with grit and try by hand.
Regards,
R. Flux

[rifle]

I think if I was to lap the barrel of a cap&baller Colt I'd put the barrel in a padded vise and not use the firing with powder and all. A Remington I'd take the barrel off the gun to put it in a padded vise.
I think I'd take greatly over sized lead balls and drivr them thru a piece of steel with a proper size hole in it to swag them to have a big bearing surface. The bigger the ball in relation to the hole will make a nice bearing surface much widder than the circumference of a lesser diameter ball. If the barels groove diameter is small enough bullets made of pure lead can be sized to be a little over the groove diameter of the barrel. The bullets can be rolled between two steel plates with lapping compound to impregnate the compound into the surface of the lead bullets. The lube grooves of the bullets can carry some extra compound too. I'd roll the wide bearing surface of the oversized balls ,put thru a hole in steel to size them, on the steel plates to impregnate compound into them too.
The barrel in the padded vise can have the compound impregnated balls or sized bullets driven thru with a wood dowel. If you can keep the grooves swagged into the balls/bullets aligned with the same grooves each time you can re-use the balls/bullets and drive them thru over and over. Of course more compound can be smeared on them and more smeared in the forcing cone area and inside the barrel with Q-tips and then the balls/ bullets can be inserted in the breech end of the barrel and....."bumped up" by hitting them from both sides simaltaneousely with two wood dowels or carefully with steel drill rod (steel obtuates(bumps up) the lead easier than wood dowels) to make them perfectly tight. Tight is good and the only proper way to lap so you don't round the lands edges and deform the rifling in the barrel. Bump up the balls or bullets each time or every third time they are used and after the bumping up tap the compound-ed lead thru again and catch it at the end coming out the breech. If you can align the same grooves to the same lands bumping up isn't needed every time the lead is re-used to drive thru the barrel again. If aligning the same grooves of the balls and bullets to the same lands each time is too difficult then just "bump up" the lead at the breech end of the barrel each time re-inserted in the barrel to drive thru again.
oing the lapping this way eliminates the cleaning part when powder and firing is done. No firing no cleaning of fouling. Only compound in the barrels.
Tight spots in barrels can be felt and so can loose spots. Bumping up the balls in the barrel  an inch or about that toward the muzzle end and then doing it right at the muzzle end can tell you if the muzzle is widder than the back part of the barrel. The muzzle shouldn't be widder in groove diameter compared to the rest of the barrel. There can be small differences in groove diameters inside the barrels as long as the muzzle end is the smallest diameter.
Anyway....lapping by hand with a tight patch is a no no because it is too loose and deforns the rifling. Polishing some with a tight patch and compound on a jag is alright though. The lead swags with the compound on them have to be "tight" in the bore so they don't deform the rifling. The tight swags with compound can't be very easily moved in the barrels so the tapping thru with a wood dowel is the best way. You can't do a good job of lapping a barrel by using a loose lapping swag on a ramrod and pushing it by hand. If the swag with the compound is tight like it should be it's too hard to push thru by hand with a ramrod. Some take a piece of ramrod with the brass tip thats threaded and use a ball puller the right caliber to keep the swag of lead with the compound on it on the end of the ramrod and lap by hand. That is a looser fit lap job and isn't proper. Tight is the way the lap swag should be going thru the barrels.
I've lapped with my small milling machine by putting a stout piece of drill rod in the drill chuck. The piece of drill rod having a hole for a screw to pass thru to screw into a ramrod brass tip. Another brass tip in the other end of the wood  ramrod can hold a ball puller that can have the lead lapping swag screwed onto the ball puller.Ball puller of the right caliber has a screw on it to screw into a lead ball to pull it out of a rifle barrel.
The barrel in the padded(leather)machine vise with the center line of the bore perpendicular to the mills drill chuck is ready to have the ramrod screwed to the drill rod that's in the drill chuck and the lead swag end inserted in the barrels breech end. The lead swag on the ramrod smeared with lapping compound and the forcing cone smeared with the compound and the first inch or so of the barrel smeared with the compound too. Then all that is needed to drive the "tight" lap thru the bore is to turn the wheels on the mills table to ove the barrel back and forth so the ramrod and the lap on the end of it is going back and forth in the barrel lapping it. Now....understand what I'm saying to do. The machine is never turned on. Only the drill chuck with the drill rod with the hole in it with a screw thru that to screw into the end of the ramrod of wood with the other end with a ball puller attched and a lead on the ball pullers screw with compound on the lead is moved thru the barrel set perpendicular to the drill chuch by using the wheels that move the mill table back and forth. The machine actually should be unplugged from the power source. The idea is to move a tigh "bumped up" lap thru the barrel by mechanical means where it's too difficult to do it by hand because the lap has to be "tight" in the bore. Bumping up the lap when it gets loose is done often and the lap is taken out often to smear lapping compound on the lead swag and in the forcing cone and first inch or so of the barrel.
Firing lapping may obtuate the lead with the compound in the bore to make it really tight but .....it takes a lot of bullets fired with compound down a barrel to smooth it good and even a lot more to lap out tight spots and bumps from dovetailed loading lever catches and dovetailed front sights that are peened aroungf to tighten them and stamping writting on barrels that make bumps get inside barrels. Using the tapping thru or the mill table method of lapping and seeing bumps and measuring tight spots when it's possible will let you see.....it takes "a lot" of passes thru a barrel of steel to make it lapped uniformily from one end to the other. Lots of lapping. More than most people think is needed.
Acuracy is really improved in a barrel that has some bump or some tight spots inside that make the balls smaller than the muzzle end of the barrels. Smaller than the muzzle end of the barrels makes the gun shoot like it hasd a bad crown that rotates sporatically every where arount the circle that's the end of the barrel and that throws lead down range like a scatter gun.
Lapping a barrel seems to always make it more consisantly accurate unless it already is that way. Flyers are more scarce from a lapped barrel that's done right.
making the barrels lapped with a slight choke at the muzzle end seems to always improve accuracy some. Not a real tight choke at the muzzle. Just a slight one. Like Harry Popes rifle barrels were done. Most accurate barrels in the worls at that time and the secrete was a slight choke to the muzzle end of the barrels.
You just lap all the rest of the barrel more than the muzzle end. More at the breech and leas down the barrel as you lap towards the muzzle. You know..like ten backand forths at the first coupla inches...then eight back and forths the next coupla inches the six back and forths the next coupla inches then four back and forths the next coupla inches ect.ect.ect.
That can make a slight choke down the entire barrel from the breech end to the muzzle and make yer gun shoot really good.
Anyway Id not fire lap. I'd use the tap thru the barrel a lead compouned smeared slug over and over bumping it up to keep it tight or use the mill table with a ramrod attached to the drill chuck to move the barrel back and forth on the lead lap.
I've lapped stubborn barrels for what seemed like forever. Lap awhile...leave it a coupla days...go back to and lap awhile till the thing is done. It can take a lot of passes with lapping compound to get tool chatter or bumps or tight spots out of a barrel.
It always seems worth the trouble after the lapping and the gun shoots like a laser beam.   
Using diamond lapping compound is more costly but...goes quicker too. Start with a course compound and then goe to finer after that in however many grites you might want to try. MSC machine and tool supply sells diamond lapping compound.
Lapping compund is actually for polishing so removing metal like tool chatter and bumps takes a lot of polishing to get them out of that barrel. Takes a lot of fire lapping too. More than just for polishing a bore. Bors get polished pretty quick but...polishing more after they look real smooth is good because if we could see microscopically there are little mountains and craters still in a bore that looks real smooth. Go to smooth and then smoother and then smoother and then smoother and then smoother. Then go smoother than that.
Plese excuse any typing errors.

[R. Flux]

Gents:
Thanks for the the ideas and advice, this is a great Winter project.  I'll let you know the results.
Regards,
~R. Flux